@AssaultSquid I have trouble even speaking on the subject let alone holding my tongue in chat, when i joined this server i had every intention of being as kind as possible but when i voiced a complaint about how it feels unfair to ask people to vote to be able to set home i was greeted by some real A class rudeness all around,
this trend pretty much continued from then on
I consider my self a rational person but i have not encountered any staff actually ever trying to deescalate a situation through anything but sheer force,
I was kicked for racism because i stated a FACT that is NOT controversial
xylophone teeth was given a 3 day ban for Pretending to advertise and "not being very sorry about it"
he was not rude in his ban appeal but justified his actions by saying you cant advertise something that doesnt exist, the stafff reply was that you can advertise something that doesnt exist, im sorry WHAT???
that doesnt make any fucking sense on any level.
i saw a new player join the server once they said "I have an idea" and without hesitation an admin sarcastically replied "oh sure lets here your totally original idea i havent ever heard in years of being admin". it doesnt matter what they were gonna say thats straight up just a shit attitude out the gate from staff.
staff is frequently toxic and they support each other when they are toxic and never own upto mistakes( correct me if im wrong by showing me and instance of this)

Rudeness by whom? I very much doubt it was a staff member, perhaps you can supply logs to see what you think we can improve.
Overall though, chat isn't the place for such a discussion.

Staff always try to calm down situations by changing topic and giving warnings, I'm afraid that statement is simply so untrue I can't let it stand.
Yes however we do use sheer force and often because that is what's required, chat offenders generally don't listen to reason nor do they want to stop. Should we offer them cookies instead?

Of course you can advertise something that doesn't exist, people consistently sell and advertise ideas which don't exist.
In fact it's entirely beside the point, since staff don't have the time to check if every domain posted is real or not. You should not post domains at all, however the fact it wasn't real lead to the 3 day ban instead of the normal permanent.
After which me and Xylo made up and I'd like to say we are friends now since we play together.

Can you provide chat logs of this admin, I severely doubt with your history of rule breaking you are giving us an unbiased representation.
Also we do make mistakes and we do correct them, we screwed up the economy and apologized. We've had long down time and we apologized, we've banned people who aren't hacking rarely or we cant prove and apologized. Despite the fact we offer countless hours of our time on a free server.

@NerdieBirdieYT @Zane_Truesdale I have zero issues with the rules. It's the enforcement that is often an issue.

Also, chat ain't family friendly. Just saying. XD (I get what you mean though no worries <3)

I just don't think there is an issue with how they enforce the rules, you have yet to bring up one situation to convince me either. Up until now in my view it's simply you repeating complaints of hackers and people banned for chat offenses without explaining anything or why these bans were wrong.

I'm a rational person if you think you are right I welcome any chance to bring about change but you need to stop with these sweeping generalizations which overall ring hollow, anyone can say this but the facts don't lie.

@Cileklim Please don't use your alt to support your arguments.

I'm going to assume that was directed at me as the only person who is least known here, I think it's pretty disrespectful to me that you assume anyone who disagrees with you that's not well known is an alt.
Some of us work 40+ hour weeks and then commute 2 hours each day on top of that, the source of logic and truth is irrelevant to the content itself anyway.

@R4iscool1 Post the chat logs if you wish, I never once stated that you were banned from saying harassment in chat.

Ahem. Read above.

@R4iscool1 So far I count 7 players, on a server which receives over a hundred a day. That's not a representative sample, as I said people with issues are the ones more likely to be vocal.

This post has received 290 views in 2 hours.

@NerdieBirdieYT Ahem. Read above.

This post has received 290 views in 2 hours.

The view counter on the forum isn't unique, so every time a new post has been made on this thread and people have refreshed to see it, it's added a view.
I don't see how views translate into opinions either.

Read above.

The original point that Nerdie pointed out is that Grassling's thread was not rule breaking, which is correct. Oftentimes a few threads get posted that can be aimed at staff need to be digested fully and carefully inspected to see if the contents hold true, this was the case, I chose to do it this way to make it easier on myself and the admins to read a long post without the effects of the community chipping it and making it harder for us to catch up, similar how im having difficulty to respond to all issues addressed in this thread after so much discussion happening after a few hours, which is the amount of post I expected from Grassling's thread.

I was only going to come home until 6pm, I did not feel like ready 13 essays today but hell, happened anyway

@TopsNeverStops I have seen other instances like this happen, but quite frankly, I don't have the time to dig through months of logs, so here's my personal example.

Which is precisely why this post will likely do nothing. The amount of garbage we'd have to bring up AND justify while people insert their drama every other second is unfathomable.

Suggestions for a fix, anyone, or are we still pretending this isn't an issue? I know @TopsNeverStops has been here a long time, so if you don't believe me after three months, ask him. Or anyone else who's posted here in the past three hours.

@Blackened_Dawn I'll allow you to do that but again, this post wasn't made to appeal my ban this post was made because valuable players of the community have a big enough problem with the ways things are run that they took the times out of their busy days to voice their concerns. I'm glad that you guys are communicating to find an effect solution and I really hope it benefits the server.

@Ealdwine_Drasax I totally get where you're coming from, and this thread may indeed prove to be pointless. Heck, maybe I'll get banned by the time this is over.

But just like in the real world, we need to make our opinions heard. I hope it is clear to @R4iscool1 now that this is bigger than a minority opinion, as shown by how this thread has skyrocketed in the past few hours. Like @Ealdwine_Drasax said, there's a lot more players out there affected by this who a) don't use the forums and b) are too afraid of punishment for simply voicing their opinion to post on this thread.

Unless staff decides to take this seriously (which I doubt, because let's be honest, it's easier to do nothing than take the effort to change), the only way this will go anywhere is if we bring up numerous controversial situations from the past, which I'm sure staff will agree is a bad idea. I mean, if that's what's required to get our voice heard, go for it, but that will start a LOT more arguments.

Then reason people don't give many examples is because mentioning specific staff members is dangerous here. You could be banned for it later on. And as @SnowProper showed, staff ain't always in the know.

So please take this seriously, staff, and let's get something good to happen.

Of course! I understand your frustrations and I truly do sympathize.

I will just ask for the community to try to keep this in mind: being in a staff position for any public place is not as easy a task as it would seem (or as I thought it would be back in the days when I first became helper). Many people rely on us to keep the community clean and happy. It is impossible to please everybody all of the time, no matter how hard we try. I can promise you that none of us are actively trying to target players or harm the server.

The above wasn't referring to this situation in particular or at all to try to delegitimize the points that yall have brought up, but rather to the communication issue that @NerdieBirdieYT brought up.

@Grassling @Dennari43 you say we need to stop taking jabs at staff but you explicitly just called me an angry kid which I see as a jab in itself. My purpose in this thread is not to appeal my ban as i've stated it was only brought up (not even by me) to support the argument at hand. I simply asked for the reason I was actually banned but i'm just told its a bunch of little things. When staff were addressed with in this forum originally by berdie i believe he also said the problem was a bunch of things but he was asked to explain in order to effectively communicate an understanding. Maybe you could try do so yourself unless you just decided to communicate in a conversation you lack knowledge of and are therefore not defending an argument but instead a side.(staff) i want my opinion to be heard without "backlash" because if staff members expect respect they should be exemplary.

Staff have the right not to be harassed.
You do not have the right to use their personal first names regardless of whether other people use it when you have been told to stop.
I'm sure you don't have strangers on the Internet refer to you by your RL name.
Does that clear why you were banned?

Staff can only do as best as possible, we offer a free service to the server and pout hundreds of hours in and we do make mistakes that happens but that doesn't mean we are unfit for staff.

@HaloNest I'm on staff on this one, but there's only one thing I don't get...

Why do you keep arguing like that mate?
Sometimes feels like you argue just for the sake of arguing..

Just responding to his correction that's all.

Most of you know me as a goofy but fair admin- i dont say shit without meaning and by the time im done writing im not even sure what topic im gonna be on, but i hope i can keep it relevant to the main.

Craftymynes is a community like no other in the minecraft world. The people here, the ones that stay, are wonderful and helpful and communicative, and we love that about you guys and gals.

We have one of the longest running vanilla servers, forerunners to almost every vanilla trick in the books to date, because the staff built and designed and protect the server to the best of their abilities.
With the exception of the founders, every one of our staff members was a player, who spent a long time on the server, with their own ideas and grievences, and joined the CM team to help make the place better.

But our job, above all else, is to make this place as safe and neutral as a sweedish bakery- That means for everyone, staff and players. I like to think we do a dam good job keeping riffraff to a minimum.

When someone decides to start pushing boundaries, we arent pushovers. We have thousands of hours dealing with people who think they know how to run our server better than us, who think they can skirt the systems, get people behind them because they "technically didnt break the rules, theres nothing written about doing that"... there shouldnt have to be. but now theyve forced it to be because they wouldnt let go of the thread of the idea that theyve someone got the upperhand.

Our staff is diverse, yes. Cold analytical minds, venting hotheads, bubbleheaded whositswhatsits- we have alot of different viewpoints, and we talk- alot. about everything. If someone is asked not to do something because its making someone uncomfortable, or is breaking unwritten but commonsense rules, or simply being stupid on purpose and continues to do so after being asked to stop, then told to stop and it dosent change because their wall on anonymity is a saftey bubble.. thats not someone you keep around. You keep around the players that laugh, and talk, and build and want to better the community- not the ones who dont care if they break it down.

bloody hell i need to learn that commas arent periods

@Grassling And for the 50th time I was never warned for simply using personal names I was warned for revealing personal information. If you could please stop ignoring this detail and address it it would be appreciated.

Were you giving out other information that pertained to his person? Were you mentioning his height? Weight? Background? Other irl info about him? If not, then by process of elimination, the name revealing is the only personal information you were using and you should have easily been able to figure that out, as it is info about him personally. And it is not public knowledge. Despite my many, many hours spent on CM and even talking directly with Vene, I never knew his real name. Probably less than 1% of the entire CM community was now aware of his name, and that's with the assumption everyone was paying attention to chat and knew who Juli was talking about in the first place. It's probably a smaller percentage with the amount of players that have been on versus can be on at a time. And considering I would only be able to learn his name still by either asking him or a close friend that also knows his name, it's not public info. What you're considering public is like hearing a person in a crowd calling a person by name and then assuming, because you overheard that name, you have a right to call them that as well without their permission or even talking to them about it. This is not a perfect example, but it's fairly to the point.

@GrandpaCarl00 Gotta remember, names are used all the time, people don't have to constantly ask '' Can I use your name? ''

Names are given out all the time, facebook, dinner reservations, dating sites, going to your mom or friends house, school, getting pulled over by cops?

Should all of those people need to ask ''Do I have permission to use your name?''

facebook- They ask for your name and you willingly give it.
dinner reservations- They ask for your name and you willingly give it.
dating sites- They ask for your name and you willingly give it.
going to your mom's house- That's your mom, they gave you your name.
friends house- That's your friend, you gave them permission when you met and became friends.
school- They ask for your name and you willingly give it.
pulled over by cops- They ask for your name and you willingly give it.

this situation- They did not ask. You did not give permission or even tell them your name. They found out your name and used it without your permission.

Even I didn't see that comment coming.

That's coming from someone who loves to win arguments with staff because I'm impossible to talk with when it comes to arguments because I somehow always tend to win these so all they do is the lock the thread, so let me just stay out of any kind of arguments because like Mr. Anonymous said, it's waste of time...and jesus 20 hours of arguing? I wonder what could you possibly do in these 20 hours y'all spent to argue lol.

@Anonymous What a wonderful conversation.

I've been watching and reading everything since it started and I have to say

I've never seen quite a staff like you bunch before.
You prefer to argue with your players instead of actually want to resolve the problem at hand and continue to make the problem worse
by your behavior shown. At first, it was fairly tame and full of good points, but now look at what it's devolved into because you
can't even manage a simple thread on your forums.

Now, who the fuck am I?
I'm an anonymous person who's been watching the entire time, I don't play on the server but I do know a very good amount about CraftyMynes and how it works. Trust me on that. I've also moderated Minecraft server forums before, and this is in no way shape or form how any
staff should handle a thread like this AT ALL.

(OMG ALT ALT ALT isn't true at all. But have fun with saying that.)

The only real person I see who is actually trying to remedy the situation is rnc2011, and I applaud him for that. THAT is how you handle
this, not act like R4, Vene, or almost every other staff member that has replied to this dumpster fire of a thread.
R4 and Vene's behaviors are the real issue here, R4 seems to want to argue over the littlest shit just for the sake of arguing, and Vene
is overreacting way too much to his FIRST NAME being posted.

Okay I'm not sure why you would be anonymous if you aren't actually involved or write this long post but staff have opinions too and they should be allowed to express them. We aren't robots and are entitled to our views like any other players. It's through expressing these views and finding a solution a problem is actually solved.
I'm sorry you think I argue for the sake of it but the fact you posted here despite having no connection seems to suggest the same about you.
I can agree with Nerdie though if it devolves to post like this then the thread will have lost its purpose.
This thread isn't supposed to be managed

@Anonymous First names are pretty much public information, people. If you post it online, it stays online. If you don't want people to use your
name in a specific place online, DO NOT POST IT. Vene seems to have done quite the opposite by making his first name public to this
server and people using it is entirely his fault. Now, removing his name and asking people to no longer use it is perfectly fine, but he
brought it on himself.

I've seen this argument quite often, and I'm going to shut it down right here and now.

"If strangers used my name, I'd be uncomfortable." No you wouldn't. It happens all the time, have you ever worked a job where you had a nametag?
Have you ever had someone call you for a job interview?
Have you ever met a stranger and told them your name?
Have famous people ever freaked out when a fan approached them on the street because said fan knew their name?
Does Kim Kardashian lose her shit every time a stranger who writes for a magazine uses her name in an article?

Ultimately your data is your data you have the right to privacy as I pointed out. Yes if you put your name on a name tag then you are consenting to other people using it. That's how data law works, sometime you might be required to do so for your job too, if you consent that's fine. If you don't consent however that is an issue just like Vene didn't. Whether they put it in the public domain or not as I pointed out is irrelevant to that right.
In response to your argument about Journalists, Journalism is in the int rest of the public and sometimes privacy is disregarded for the sake of public interest, that doesn't make it a free rein to do what you want with data however.

@Anonymous Dictating to people whether or not they can use your name or not and requiring them to ask permission is utterly stupid and going so far
as to ban Grassling over using Vene's first name is petty. It seems that staff reiterating that staff had already banned Grassling
multiple times beforehand makes it look like they were looking for any reason to perm ban Grassling, and they got one because
Vene made his name public.

Shut the hell up about whether or not it's legal or not to use a first name, because the majority of first names are impossible to track
back to the specific person that you're referring to. If Vene's name was Bob, you couldn't just type "Bob" into Google and you'd immediately
find Vene's Facebook account, that's not how it works.
And so what if people know your first name in a Minecraft server? Either get over it and learn to live with it, or throw a complete
tempertantrum and get someone banned because of your own mistake.

I'm sorry you think it's stupid but as we pointed out we value you privacy in CM here, our staff don't deserve to be treated differently to players and they have a right to privacy, if you think that's stupid I'm sorry but that's just it.

The only reason we mentioned his multiple bans is people kept saying we banned him without warning or that was the sole reason and he should have got more warning before Perma.
That wasn't the case so we supplied more info for their benefit so they could come to a proper judgement.

I think data law is quite relevant here despite your complaints it is isn't either.
We know what he did isn't illegal, no one ever said that.
What we did talk about was how far privacy extends and how it's currently enshrined in the law. An interesting topic for me at least.
Whether or not that data links directly back to you isn't relevant either to the right to privacy, if they don't want you calling them by their real name then don't.

@Anonymous Come on.

And then, the very handling of this thread is entirely fucking unprofessional. There are MULTIPLE ways staff could have handled this
and they were all ignored just for the sake of arguing the point that they are not toxic. (Ironic, if you ask me.)

If the staff TRULY AND HONESTLY cared about improving the way they handle themselves on the server, they would have made it very clear in
the first place, but clearly the majority of them just want to make the situation worse by arguing. There's only been about 2 staff members
that have shown true caring for the growing hostility between staff and players, the rest of staff don't seem to give a shit.

How could have this been handled then?

Let's list all of the possibilities.

1. Say "Oh we're so sorry you feel this way! Please tell us why you think we're toxic assholes and we'll try our best to work towards
being better towards our players and not spend hours upon hours arguing with them! If you do have evidence of a staff member being rude
like R4 has been for the majority of this thread, please submit it so we can make sure it doesn't happen again!"

Or something along those lines that is neutral, yet remorseful and hopeful of a better future on the server.

2. Lock the thread and have staff reply to it asking that if anyone has a problem with staff, they should take it up with them
privately and not blow this already fucked situation way out of porportion. In other words, "Take it up with crafty."

3. Have an open discussion with your players about why they feel like staff have been rude constantly and saying shit like "Rip you" when
a player dies to a server related issue, apologize, then go into staff chat and have a discussion with other staff members about
their behavior and how they can improve. If they don't improve, you can actually demote them! How crazy is that?

4. Don't argue with people.

5. Don't argue.

6. Don't. Argue.

Oh look, you went and argued.

So congratulations to the CraftyMynes staff and R4 for proving that there is indeed a problem with them and they aren't willing to change,
they'd rather argue with you for 18-20 hours just because they don't like that they're being called out!

Good job! Let's all throw a party with ice cream and cake over the failure of staff!

1. I asked multiple times for evidence of a staff member being rude to be submitted and said we would delay with it if the complaint was valid. So did clutch.
Clearly you haven't read the whole thread if you missed that.

2. We were doing that with the original thread, having a public discussion is much more beneficial however with the view of change as people can see what others think and there can be no accusations of censorship.

3. We have been trying to do that and it has been asked multiple times why they think staff are rude and in what situations this occurred. We then addressed the concerns in the thread.

4. I'd like to think this was a discussion not an argument for most of the time. People with clashing viewpoints will talk about their views and try to convince each other.
What did you expect, one person would say we were rude for any reason at all and then no one even if they were not staff would challenge it if they had a different view....

As you can see we actually did most of what you said, so I don't think this is very valid criticism at all, if you think otherwise we would be glad to have an explanation as to how we didn't and how you think we can do better.

We'd much rather solve a problem, personally the fact we have been talking this long shows we actually care. If we didn't we would just ignore it. It's posts like yours that are condescending that lead to the issues and take away from that process.