@FieryPhoenix64 If we do change to spigot, will it be a custom written one by crafty or a third party one by some random people?

@Th3GreenGamer I think he means like custom written plugins.

We would be using paper spigot and the panel I have already written, however, I would be making a plugin to translate the ".Commands" to "/Commands", I might also make some of my own plugins later down the line. We won't be using any off the shelf stuff like essentials.

@FieryPhoenix64 If we do change to spigot, will it be a custom written one by crafty or a third party one by some random people?

What would be custom written?

@SharpSerac just switch to spigot for the purpose of reducing lag, leave everything else the same. ie just change the jar lol

That would be the plan.

@JaceNeedsCoffee While I feel that sticking to our vanilla routes is important, I know that this server is more than just a server or block game. In its more simplest form, it is yes, but this server provides a getaway for people. It is a way to distract from real life for a couple of hours and have some fun you might otherwise not. It has given me people I'd call my closest friends. I've even met a couple of people in person that I've played with for years on here. When I first joined the server I was in a dark place with my depression and family issues. When I had free time I could come on for a little bit and play with others. I didn't feel as alone and isolated from the world. I had people to spend time with to make the bad times go just a little bit faster and be a little more enjoyable. I think that our community is so strong and if we wish to stick to the principal of being vanilla the server will die out and we will lose all the creative, loving and caring people that make our server special and unique. As much as I would hate losing our vanilla status, I would rather lose that than each and every one of you lovely people that kept me going in those dark time and keep me company to this day :)

I wholeheartedly agree with this, we have come too far and put too much in to lose it all over mojang's crap.

@DonCake Having an anti-lag plugin won't make the gameplay less vanilla

It's not even a plugin, it's just paper spigot, it is some performance enhancing modifications to the game code that Mojang should have done.

@Th3GreenGamer I really don’t think going semi-vanilla is a good idea. We’d just be a drop in a semi-vanilla ocean. Not special like it is now, being an ACTUALLY vanilla server (Which is the server’s unique core purpose). Going back all those years ago, I would have never actually joined if this was s-v. For those that would say “Nothing would be different” Yes it would, there would be no reason for the server to exist. It would have no defining principle. Destroying the thing that makes this server unique is just destroying the server altogether. Honestly If the server was made into semi-vanilla I might very well leave.

I have held off changing to spigot for so long just because of this issue. I have spent 5 years developing this server solely with vanilla in mind. Every single system from the custom panel that handles votes, homes, chat filtering, server AI helper, donations, hacker detection to the forum and other services that CraftyMynes has. All these, for the most part, were unheard of in the vanilla category, we were the first for so many things. That being said, the majority of these features could have been implemented just by downloading a simple plugin from some random forum somewhere. I picked vanilla because I enjoyed the challenge of doing something no one else had done, developing tools and methods that didn't exist.

All that being said, I am tired of the shit that mojang pulls, it is impossible to run a server where every second word out of someone's mouth is LAAAAGGG. It pains me to see all these players come on for 5 minutes and say "This server is shit, they should buy some more ram.", for god sakes, I pay $100's a month on the best server components that money can buy, and even more money on the services that make CraftyMynes special. Every waking hour I am tuning each and every component/system to run as smooth as possible. At this point, I can't tell if the pain of giving up everything I stand for, all my hard work to keep this server vanilla, is worse than the pain of knowing CraftyMynes might not exist in the not too distant future. I gotta be honest with you, I never wanted to make money from this server, but at the same time, I can't be paying everything out of pocket.

CraftyMynes key selling points are it's Vanilla, it has systems like TPA, and a good community.

TPA is no longer special, vanilla is dying, so all we got is a community, if we don't do something soon, we won't have community and a server without community is nothing.

I say, wait for 1.14.3 to come out, see what it brings to the table, but, if it can't hold more than 5 people without lagging, we will have to switch or risk disappearing altogether.

My 2cents.

@Xenial_Jesse It's worth acknowledging that right now the biggest causes of lag aren't so much vanilla as they are 1.14.

1.14.3 in theory could get things back to vanilla 1.13 performance, but we've been through those hopes with 1.14.1 and 1.14.2 already. Plus as others have mentioned, ongoing future versions of Minecraft will give the server more to deal with for each new feature.

The thing is, from 1.8 to 1.14.2, we have seen each update lag consistently worse. 1.14.2 really didn't improve the overall lag, it just got it closer to what it was in 1.13. Right now we have a critical mass that is able to keep the server afloat in donations and votes. Soon, with the unplayable nature of 1.14, we will go drop below this number and the new players won't come, we won't have the donations to keep the server going and CraftyMynes will disappear. It is a shame it has come to this, but Mojang has shown no interest in keeping Vanilla alive.

@Xenial_Jesse The reality is that vanilla isn't going to solve lag issues like plugins do. The only real reason in this thread to keep going with pure vanilla is in Crafty's replies: time.

The flipside of that is the other reality: profit.
The server currently doesn't run in a way that will hold onto players. Right now we *prefer* when there are about 6 players on, and that's not how you want a server population to be thinking.

Even when we consider the (better) 1.13 performance on Crafty, I just tried another raid/grief-friendly 1.13 server in the US. I'm connecting from Australia and the difference is simply unbelievable. Not one block lagged, even digging with bare hands. At least 80 players on, since 80 is all that could fit on the screen. Mobs moved fast. Tick speed was actually running on time. I didn't know online games could feel that close to single player. It was unbelievable to me while playing but maybe that's actually normal. With over 80 players.

Even in 1.13 on Crafty we didn't get anything like that. A server on vanilla will tick more slowly more often. It doesn't matter what Mojang should do; they aren't doing it.

If we can still play the vanilla experience with simply less lag, I'm for it. I love the legit vanilla experience, but we don't have to hold onto a bad thing just because it's been held onto for so long already.

Back in 1.8 we were able to hold 88 players with little to no lag, we now have better hardware and more optimized systems, but we can barely manage 2tps. Mojang has clearly shown they are never going to be on a road to optimization and performance.

It is up, sorry.

@Jkeller4000 I say leave it vanillia.

I love minecraft comes out with an update. then in an hour crafty mynes updates!

with plugins, we would have to wait months for the plugins to update. and often times the plugins do not update.

@Aeristacho I have just looked into the update release dates of previous versions and at least spigot usually comes out within the same week. I have gone through a handful of forums and found a few talking about also being just survival with a couple admin plugins being used. I could still be wrong but this "Update takes forever" argument just does not seem to be valid? Feel free to prove this wrong <<<
Perhaps we can wait and see for the 1.14.3 version and see if that fixes it. If it still continues maybe then we could raise the issue again and explore possible resolutions?

This used to be the case, however, with snapshots and the way that spigot is just patching the mojang jar and not re-writing large parts of it, updates are much faster. PaperSpigot is likely what we would be using. Minecraft 1.14 came out April 23 and paperspigot came out May 7th, so about 2 weeks where we would not have the newest version until they update. The slow down with plugin servers is when they run 100's of plugins and not every plugin dev updates their plugins, as a semi-vanilla server we would be running no plugins or maybe just a few anti lag type plugins. The time to update would be much quicker, just at the mercy of paperspigot. One other thing is that paperspigot updates 1-2 times a week, so it would be quite the task to vet each version and update.

I think the main thing this comes down to is how people feel about, how much they want and, whether they can support the staff and I through the upgrade process as it would be a hell of a lot of work both technically and administratively (we could likely support more players)

It would be a ton of time and effort for me of which I just don't have the time, I would want to be sure this is the right decision and what the players wanted before proceeding.

Polls have in the past not been a great representation of what players want as the % of players on the forum is quite low to the players on the server. I would be likely making a poll that operates on the server.

Thoughts?