ah yes, most of all. all 3 of them.

@SharpSerac I don't think you got the point of my post. Currently if you drink an invisibility potion you are only invisible to people who are on a DIFFERENT team than you are. This means that if we are outside of spawn and I drink an invisibility potion, you won't be able to see me, but someone who is a normal player who hasn't gotten VIP or a staff rank will be able to see me.

I feel as if you didn't read my post at all. It's poor taste to accuse someone of misunderstanding something when you didn't actually read what they say.
I am well aware how the invisibility potion works here, the tag you listed is not a new revelation, I don't think anyone was unclear on how it works either.
Your very point admits what I'm describing is a problem, it makes it very easy to spawncamp noobs who currently as soon as they exit spawn can see you and retreat easily.

@SharpSerac As stated in the OP, this can be activated on a TEAM BY TEAM BASIS, meaning that the spawn team will be UNAFFECTED by the change. This will only change when you are outside of spawn and on the same team (AKA you are both VIP or you are both normal players).

Why is this relevant to the point I was making ?
The point about camping and it being something that could cause more potential harm than good still stand, everyone knows it's can be set on a team basis but it's irrelevant to the points being raised.

@SharpSerac Invisibility potions do have drawbacks, you can see the potion particles around someone if they are invisible, the player still makes sounds while walking around, and you can't wear armor or hold items if you want to completely be invisible. They won't make too much of an impact on PVP, but they will definitely be useful. Also, this could actually even help the people looking to avoid PVP. In trouble? Chug an invisibility potion and run for your life.

Or we could just remove the potential advantage/disadvantage and keep everyone lives simpler ?
I find it extremely unlikely that you would be suggesting this unless there was some potential advantage you would gain from it. Which there clearly is when you consider the camping potential.

The one place I would support enabling is in the Arena via the arena team but I don't think it would add to the Craftymynes experience outside the spawn.

I think you would be much better of describing what benefits you think disabling this gives the server as opposed to simply just describing stuff that is already common knowledge.

@R4iscool1 I feel as if you didn't read my post at all.
I am well aware how the invisibility potion works here, I don't think anyone was unclear on that.
Your very point admits what I'm describing is a problem, it makes it very easy to spawncamp noobs who currently as soon as they exit spawn can see you and retreat easily.

Well camping spawn is already against the rules, so if people do use it to camp end or nether spawn then they are breaking the rules.

To address the rest of your response, it can't be an advantage if everyone has access to it. Also, if you want to be fully invisible you can't wear armor, so just look at where the sword is hitting you and hit them (because they would have no armor).

The developers intended the invisibility potion to make you invisible to other players, they put limitations on it so that it would not be overpowered.

The benefit would be that invisibility potions wouldn't be completely useless unlike how they are now.

@R4iscool1 I feel as if you didn't read my post at all. It's poor taste to accuse someone of misunderstanding something when you didn't actually read what they say.
I am well aware how the invisibility potion works here, the tag you listed is not a new revelation, I don't think anyone was unclear on how it works either.
Your very point admits what I'm describing is a problem, it makes it very easy to spawncamp noobs who currently as soon as they exit spawn can see you and retreat easily.

Why is this relevant to the point I was making ?
The point about camping and it being something that could cause more potential harm than good still stand, everyone knows it's can be set on a team basis but it's irrelevant to the points being raised.

Or we could just remove the potential advantage/disadvantage and keep everyone lives simpler ?
I find it extremely unlikely that you would be suggesting this unless there was some potential advantage you would gain from it. Which there clearly is when you consider the camping potential.

The one place I would support enabling is in the Arena via the arena team but I don't think it would add to the Craftymynes experience outside the spawn.

I think you would be much better of describing what benefits you think disabling this gives the server as opposed to simply just describing stuff that is already common knowledge.

A problem with one of your arguements is that I can still spawn camp whether this is on or off. Right now if I wanted to (Which I do not) I could invis pot and only VIP+'s could see me. People with white names and who are newbies would come out of spawn and not know I was there. If it were off the same thing would happen either way. Plus it IS already against the rules to do so anyways so it doesn't matter.

Also in the regular CM world it can be used to raid more effectively, so there is another use.

@SharpSerac Well camping spawn is already against the rules, so if people do use it to camp end or nether spawn then they are breaking the rules.

To address the rest of your response, it can't be an advantage if everyone has access to it. Also, if you want to be fully invisible you can't wear armor, so just look at where the sword is hitting you and hit them (because they would have no armor).

The developers intended the invisibility potion to make you invisible to other players, they put limitations on it so that it would not be overpowered.

The benefit would be that invisibility potions wouldn't be completely useless unlike how they are now.

That is true I was more concerned with actual spawn but there's absolutely no reason to make the job harder and encourage it either for that matter.

Then why implement it at all if it provides no advantage according to you ?

The developers intended for teams to not be able to invisible to each-other hence why it's default set to true.

Invisibility pots are far from useless, in a PVP context yes they are less useful than in certain other servers but they are a great tool for raiding monuments and End ships easily. It doesn't really make sense to claim they don't provide an advantage to those that use them and yet do add to the actual usage.

@OtherGreenGamer A problem with one of your arguements is that I can still spawn camp whether this is on or off. Right now if I wanted to (Which I do not) I could invis pot and only VIP+'s could see me. People with white names and who are newbies would come out of spawn and not know I was there. If it were off the same thing would happen either way. Plus it IS already against the rules to do so anyways so it doesn't matter.

Also in the regular CM world it can be used to raid more effectively, so there is another use.

That is true, however like I said there's no need to make it harder and camping the overworld spawn is actually allowed technically, it was an issue back in 1.8 with the bridges, thankfully most of it has been mitigated by RTP.

The question is more along the lines of do we want to make raiding and pvp more effective ?
I personally do not and I feel a large contingent of the server would agree with that sentiment too.

@R4iscool1 The developers intended for teams to not be able to invisible to each-other hence why it's default set to true.

There are no words to describe the amount of facepalm in this quote here. Mojang created teams for team-based gamemodes that people would want to make. Seeing as how teams on this server are used only for player ranks, I think it's safe to say that survival is not a team-based gamemode and therefore you should not be allowed to see other invisible players.

@R4iscool1 That is true I was more concerned with actual spawn but there's absolutely no reason to make the job harder and encourage it either for that matter.

As stated above by @OtherGreenGamer he can camp the spawns anyways since he's VIP+. There's a ton of VIP players on this server so they could all camp the spawns.

If you meant actual overworld spawn, people could just use RTP. Besides, the amount of directions you could choose to walk outside of spawn make it unlikely that you could camp outside.

@R4iscool1 Then why implement it at all if it provides no advantage according to you ?

I said it didn't provide an advantage in a sense that one player gets the advantage while others do not. The only advantage it gives in PVP is that you can't be seen by the other players if you have no armor and are not holding an item, but even then you can still see particles.

@R4iscool1 The question is more along the lines of do we want to make raiding and pvp more effective ?
I personally do not and I feel a large contingent of the server would agree with that sentiment too.

You'd know you're being raided if stuff in your base is being broken, and if they're completely invisible you can hit them with a sharp 5 sword and damn near 1 shot them. If you're being raided in the first place you haven't done a very good job of keeping your base a secret, therefore it would be your fault.

I have a question for you. Why are you so against PVP on this server? You seem to be against everything that encourages PVP for no apparent reason.

Break it up ladies, it's just a suggestion. Or it gets locked to be revised later.

@SharpSerac There are no words to describe the amount of facepalm in this quote here. Mojang created teams for team-based gamemodes that people would want to make. Seeing as how teams on this server are used only for player ranks, I think it's safe to say that survival is not a team-based gamemode and therefore you should not be allowed to see other invisible players.

There is no need to get rude.
That is completely your own opinion, so please don't state it like a fact, the wiki states its intended for Mapmakers and operators to keep track of players in myriad ways which describes our own usage quite well.
The whole argument of what the DEV's intended is irrelevant anyway which was kinda my point.

@SharpSerac As stated above by @OtherGreenGamer he can camp the spawns anyways since he's VIP+. There's a ton of VIP players on this server so they could all camp the spawns.

If you meant actual overworld spawn, people could just use RTP. Besides, the amount of directions you could choose to walk outside of spawn make it unlikely that you could camp outside.

It really isn't that uncommon a thing to have spawncamping and there's no need to make it any easier than it currently is to hunt players but it wasn't really the main focus of the discussion either.

@SharpSerac I said it didn't provide an advantage in a sense that one player gets the advantage while others do not. The only advantage it gives in PVP is that you can't be seen by the other players if you have no armor and are not holding an item, but even then you can still see particles.

You'd know you're being raided if stuff in your base is being broken, and if they're completely invisible you can hit them with a sharp 5 sword and damn near 1 shot them. If you're being raided in the first place you haven't done a very good job of keeping your base a secret, therefore it would be your fault.

I'm going to correct that, you didn't say that, you just intended to say that which is kind of different, anyway
If it doesn't give an advantage in PVP then why change the value from default at all ?
It doesn't really follow.
Personally I think the ability to sneak up on people and track them does provide an advantage in a fight and that its not something I would like to make more effective.

@SharpSerac
I have a question for you. Why are you so against PVP on this server? You seem to be against everything that encourages PVP for no apparent reason.

I'm not against PVP, I'm against what you consider to be PVP which seems to be fighting anyone and everything for the edgyness of it as opposed to fighting those who wish to for the sake of actual PVP, you can play how you like of course but that doesn't mean the server has to change for you.
Once again I question how this would benefit pvp on the server if it doesn't provide an advantage according to you either.

@R4iscool1 There is no need to get rude.
That is completely your own opinion, so please don't state it like a fact, the wiki states its intended for Mapmakers and operators to keep track of players in myriad ways which describes our own usage quite well.
The whole argument of what the DEV's intended is irrelevant anyway which was kinda my point.

You can already keep track of players by using spectator mode. If I were to go invisible I'd be invisible to everyone but normal players, so this argument you made is invalid.

@R4iscool1 I'm going to correct that, you didn't say that, you just intended to say that which is kind of different, anyway
If it doesn't give an advantage in PVP then why change the value from default at all ?
It doesn't really follow.
Personally I think the ability to sneak up on people and track them does provide an advantage in a fight and that its not something I would like to make more effective.

Even though it doesn't give you an advantage in PVP, I would like invisibility potions to have an actual use, because right now they're useless, wouldn't you agree? Not everything about the invisibility potion has to do with PVP. In fact, it can be used to avoid PVP altogether, you should want invisibility potions to be fixed.

@R4iscool1 I'm not against PVP, I'm against what you consider to be PVP which seems to be fighting anyone and everything for the edgyness of it as opposed to fighting those who wish to for the sake of actual PVP, you can play how you like of course but that doesn't mean the server has to change for you.
Once again I question how this would benefit pvp on the server if it doesn't provide an advantage according to you either.

I don't think I was the one who made this about PVP, but I definitely wouldn't use them for PVP. Player vs player means just that. You're able to fight whoever you want, when you want to. We don't do it for edginess, we do it because it's fun and exciting. I'm even suggesting an option to legitimately get away from a PVP situation without logging. My original post didn't even mention PVP, I like being sneaky and I want to be invisible, why is this such a problem?

I don't really get at what you are trying to say in the first segment, the point was that what you or I or anyone else suppose the devs intended isnt all that relevant. How does what you said invalidate that 9
It's normal players that I'd be concerned about anyway is its far from irrelevant, that they can see you. The very fact you don't want them to be able to see you shows the advantages it can provide and precisely how relevant it is.

Invisibility pot is far from useless, like I said it's a great way to raid dungeons, monuments and end ships without getting detected by mobs.
They aren't as useful as they could be but that applies to many of the rarely used potions to.
Well surely the opposite should apply then since your team seems to be the one that complains the most about logging and people running away then surely you should support keeping it harder to escape?

Just imagine the teaming potential too, player 1 enters arena and fights an opponent then while he's distracted partners can equip armour and fight.

I think this is a problem because people don't want to be sneaked upon?

@Blackened_Dawn Break it up ladies, it's just a suggestion. Or it gets locked to be revised later.

* David Attenborough narration voice*

The Beast attempts to settle a despute but fails. Will she return to finish her job?

@R4iscool1 I don't really get at what you are trying to say in the first segment, the point was that what you or I or anyone else suppose the devs intended isnt all that relevant. How does what you said invalidate that 9
It's normal players that I'd be concerned about anyway is its far from irrelevant, that they can see you. The very fact you don't want them to be able to see you shows the advantages it can provide and precisely how relevant it is.

The devs intended invisibility potions to make you invisible to other players, that's why it's called an invisibility potion. Since CraftyMynes is a vanilla server which is SURVIVAL, it's safe to assume that you are meant to be invisible to everyone.

@R4iscool1 Invisibility pot is far from useless, like I said it's a great way to raid dungeons, monuments and end ships without getting detected by mobs.
They aren't as useful as they could be but that applies to many of the rarely used potions to.
Well surely the opposite should apply then since your team seems to be the one that complains the most about logging and people running away then surely you should support keeping it harder to escape?

Invisibility potions are useless as they are right now. If you have any sort of gear it doesn't make sense to use an invis pot to raid any structures. I'd rather have people use invis pots than log on me, you can still find people who are invis by looking at the particles left by them when they run on the ground, the potion particles, and the sounds they make.

@R4iscool1 Just imagine the teaming potential too, player 1 enters arena and fights an opponent then while he's distracted partners can equip armour and fight.

You can hold tab and see who's in the arena anyways, so using an invisibility potion wouldn't make too much of a difference.

@R4iscool1 I think this is a problem because people don't want to be sneaked upon?

You can still sneak and watch people from afar.

@SharpSerac The devs intended invisibility potions to make you invisible to other players, that's why it's called an invisibility potion. Since CraftyMynes is a vanilla server which is SURVIVAL, it's safe to assume that you are meant to be invisible to everyone.

Invisibility potions are useless as they are right now. If you have any sort of gear it doesn't make sense to use an invis pot to raid any structures. I'd rather have people use invis pots than log on me, you can still find people who are invis by looking at the particles left by them when they run on the ground, the potion particles, and the sounds they make.

You can hold tab and see who's in the arena anyways, so using an invisibility potion wouldn't make too much of a difference.
You can still sneak and watch people from afar.

The devs intended invisibility potions to make you invisible in certain circumstances which they do.
The devs also created a sandbox game so you could so what you want not be tied in the game the way they choose.
It is not safe to assume that, nor is actually relevant.

It makes perfect sense to raid a monument with invisibility pots, it's an easy way to raid an end game structure without good armour or bothering to kill every mob in the way. The whole idea of giving something a use doesn't entirely follow either, should be now give nitwit villagers a use?
If there's no legitimate reason then why should be modify it.

Somehow I doubt when fighting people are watching tab all that closely in a pvp fight.
The same applies to looking for particles.

That's fine you can trey sneak and watch afar and perhaps you should do that, it does not constitute an argument for changing that rule however does it?

I think we have reached the limit of where discussion will lead us with this, it's up to the players to say what they think now and finally for crafty to come to a decision.
We are not gonna convince each other and it will just make it harder for others to come to the right decision.

@R4iscool1 The devs intended invisibility potions to make you invisible in certain circumstances which they do.
The devs also created a sandbox game so you could so what you want not be tied in the game the way they choose.
It is not safe to assume that, nor is actually relevant.

It makes perfect sense to raid a monument with invisibility pots, it's an easy way to raid an end game structure without good armour or bothering to kill every mob in the way. The whole idea of giving something a use doesn't entirely follow either, should be now give nitwit villagers a use?
If there's no legitimate reason then why should be modify it.

Somehow I doubt when fighting people are watching tab all that closely in a pvp fight.
The same applies to looking for particles.

That's fine you can trey sneak and watch afar and perhaps you should do that, it does not constitute an argument for changing that rule however does it?

I think we have reached the limit of where discussion will lead us with this, it's up to the players to say what they think now and finally for crafty to come to a decision.

I honestly think you're going against me for the sake of going against me. You know that nitwits have no use in the actual game, but invis pots do. This thread isn't about giving them a use, it's about fixing them so that they have their original use. Also, if you're in the arena fighting someone, you're stuck in there because of the combat tag, so it doesn't make sense to use an invis pot to go in there to catch someone off guard anyways. I'd like to hear @CraftyMyner 's thoughts

@R4iscool1 It makes perfect sense to raid a monument with invisibility pots

Just in case anyone is thinking of doing this, see this bug report. Guardians and Elder guardians still attack you if you're invisible

@R4iscool1 it's up to the players to say what they think now and finally for crafty to come to a decision.

I haven't really seen any compelling argument either way. I was surprised to hear that this a team-specific thing, meaning that I can use invisibility potions to properly hide from some players, but not from others.

To me this seems a bit absurd, and essentially changes behaviour of invisibility potions depending on rank. From the perspective of a default player invisibility potions won't work correctly for most of the other players on the server. However for a server bill donor, because there are far fewer of them, invisibility will work correctly for almost every other player. (assuming I understand this right)

I see no particular reason to have it one way or the other, but to me it makes no sense for it to work differently between ranks than within them. I think it should either work correctly for everyone, or no-one.

@SharpSerac I honestly think you're going against me for the sake of going against me. You know that nitwits have no use in the actual game, but invis pots do. This thread isn't about giving them a use, it's about fixing them so that they have their original use. Also, if you're in the arena fighting someone, you're stuck in there because of the combat tag, so it doesn't make sense to use an invis pot to go in there to catch someone off guard anyways. I'd like to hear @CraftyMyner 's thoughts

That's not really fair I have my concerns about the implementation and would like to voice them that's nothing related to you.
The whole point was to demonstrate that an apparent lack of use does not constitute a reasonable for changing something in this context.
Like I said the game rule is set by default to be true and what people think the Devs intended is irrelevant in a sandbox game. Especially since it's your own opinions on what they think.
It would kind make sense to sneak up too since they may delay calling for help or logging or outside the arena running.

@NutjobBob Just in case anyone is thinking of doing this, see this bug report. Guardians and Elder guardians still attack you if you're invisible

I haven't really seen any compelling argument either way. I was surprised to hear that this a team-specific thing, meaning that I can use invisibility potions to properly hide from some players, but not from others.

To me this seems a bit absurd, and essentially changes behaviour of invisibility potions depending on rank. From the perspective of a default player invisibility potions won't work correctly for most of the other players on the server. However for a server bill donor, because there are far fewer of them, invisibility will work correctly for almost every other player. (assuming I understand this right)

I see no particular reason to have it one way or the other, but to me it makes no sense for it to work differently between ranks than within them. I think it should either work correctly for everyone, or no-one.

That's an interesting bug used to work in 1.8.

Yeah that's how I surmise it too, neither of the arguments raised are very compelling on their own since the idea of doing it by rank is sort of silly, either it should or should not work. I'd be a fan of the latter for the reasons above however and more.

Put on your yalmuka its time for chanuka!

@R4iscool1 Like I said the game rule is set by default to be true and what people think the Devs intended is irrelevant in a sandbox game. Especially since it's your own opinions on what they think.

The gamerule is only set to true because teams are supposed to be TEAMS. They're meant for team-based gamemodes, hence why you can't see invisible people on other teams, but you can see invis players on your own team.

alright enough