Don't misunderstand me, I would lose a significant amount of wealth too with a server reset. I've put in countless hours working on my massive underground base, and even more hours mining and obtaining wealth. Even just iron, I've mined over 65,700 ore on this server (just over 114 stacks of iron blocks). I don't currently have that much, but I still have well over a dub of iron blocks. I'm not "bored with my current base" and asking for a reset so that it would benefit me, I'm arguing that it's necessary for the server economy to be able to progress in any workable form looking far ahead. I honestly believe that, if done right, this reset would future-proof the server and prevent a reset in 5-6 months as the situation only gets worse

@ghostassasin81 why do you people type to much!!

Obviously a server reset is an important and controversial topic that affects everyone on the server. If you (or anyone else that sees this, for that matter) want to have any say in the matter I'd suggest stating your arguments or point of view as well

i agree with a reset but some people also disagree so i dont have much to say

An actual bank where players can store just currency is an interesting idea...

I agree with cepheid. I also believe that if it is designed to be rare then the player should work hard on it. Diamond is rare so it should be hard to acquire, so is shulker shells etc. Then from there let the economy of the server, which should be based on supply and demand dictate the conversions to other resources. The server is vanilla survival, rank 1. It hurts me to see its becoming creative by giving creative items (eggs, spawn villagers with imbalance trades)

2 months ago, I always thought I was the only one worried about how fucked up economy was. It seems like I'm not alone...

Emerald/diamond conversion, pumpkin villager, and now shulker eggs... 1.11 was the last bullet to our economy. I completely agree with @cepheid 's thoughts and I can imagine how absurd this may sound to a casual player but in order to balance and fix everything, we need to start with a clean slate.

Also, I would like to say that using admin heads to replace spawn eggs in Craftycrates is a brilliant idea! I believe that it will prevent the removal of spawn eggs from hurting the VIP+ sales in the future.

I'll make myself some baguettes and think about all this shit and come back but I'm still against server reset. I had enough of it. Even tho it's fun to start over can't lie about that one.

but this is minecraft, isn't everything infinite anyway? somebody is bound to have loads of everything, if it's not diamonds it'll be emeralds and this is how much they'll end up being worth:
http://www.naughtynathan.co.uk/minecraft/prices.htm
tbh im just adding another point of view, im happy no matter what happens and for what it's worth i do agree with you ^_^

i'll change my name to contradictingMytyMJ :P

Based on what I saw so far there's two Main options to fix this and one of them is involving the reset, not gonna lie I see more people rooting for a reset rather than against it and even some people who dislike the idea rooting for it but maybe a poll would do us some good? In all honesty I don't even think a reset would have negative impact on the server itself if it's resetting with the new update. A new update a new adventure, A better economy, etc. if you all wanted to make something permanent a pvp/raidable/and griefable Minecraft server isn't the place. I know that's a personal opinion when the topic of a wipeout comes to mind but other people literally leave from getting raided all the time lol. Some even come back. Cause it all can be made better and replaced.

@Pimpcy Based on what I saw so far there's two Main options to fix this and one of them is involving the reset, not gonna lie I see more people rooting for a reset rather than against it and even some people who dislike the idea rooting for it but maybe a poll would do us some good? In all honesty I don't even think a reset would have negative impact on the server itself if it's resetting with the new update. A new update a new adventure, A better economy, etc. if you all wanted to make something permanent a pvp/raidable/and griefable Minecraft server isn't the place. I know that's a personal opinion when the topic of a wipeout comes to mind but other people literally leave from getting raided all the time lol. Some even come back. Cause it all can be made better and replaced.

you need to consider the p2p aspect of the server before considering a reset

Wether there is a reset or not, this conversation is making me feel very depressed.

I would love to see a map reset. Trust me, I can tell how it feels to lose a great base, I lost a lot. Loxodon, Vilverin, Phyrexia, The Citadel and Strangers Rest. All of them were great places and my heart broke everytime when I had to move on. But I also learned that CraftyMynes is not the server to be on when you plan your buildings to last forever. It's always a matter of time. And if sb would raid and grief SC-Island now, then I wouldnt even be mad because it's the community that survives every loss, and everytime we grow stronger and better then we were before. And I think this also applies to the entire CM community, I was also here during 1.8. I saw the community developing and I feel like it is now way more advancd then it was back during 1.8, and I feel like a reset would blow some fresh air and energy in the community to develop even better. Also it would ofc fix a lot of problems regarding the fucked up economy. Seriously, I didnt really do a mining trip for months now because I simply dont need to. We have a giantic full-auto pumkin farm on our island. Almost 2 thousand pistons produce enough pumpkins to make us incredible rich, even if the villagers at spawn would be removed right know, we would still have dozens of stacks of Emmy blocks n our faction bank, enough to provide us with all we need forever. I really love to build, but rn I feel like I build out of boredom, I would't know what else to do.

I fully agree with a map reset. I've been a member here over a year but most of y'all know I don't frequent the server hourly (I do other things besides gaming and school) so I don't really spend time on building a base, currently my base is little more than a hole in the side of a hill and a stack of diamonds. I don't see the importance of a spawn egg so I don't think they are needed. I found a VIP+ CraftyCrate that a noob had (all too obviously) buried in a hill and got 2 squid eggs, one I gave away and one I swapped my zombie spawner with thinking I would get the zombie egg, which I didn't and so I don't use the squid farm. The only thing I use is the minerals to emeralds and emeralds to diamonds trades because I don't frequent and am too lazy to go and mine.

A full reset along with the elimination of spawn eggs and the OP trades would be fine with me. I would still play here.

@Sofatroll I would love to see a map reset. Trust me, I can tell how it feels to lose a great base, I lost a lot. Loxodon, Vilverin, Phyrexia, The Citadel and Strangers Rest. All of them were great places and my heart broke everytime when I had to move on. But I also learned that CraftyMynes is not the server to be on when you plan your buildings to last forever. It's always a matter of time. And if sb would raid and grief SC-Island now, then I wouldnt even be mad because it's the community that survives every loss, and everytime we grow stronger and better then we were before. And I think this also applies to the entire CM community, I was also here during 1.8. I saw the community developing and I feel like it is now way more advancd then it was back during 1.8, and I feel like a reset would blow some fresh air and energy in the community to develop even better. Also it would ofc fix a lot of problems regarding the fucked up economy. Seriously, I didnt really do a mining trip for months now because I simply dont need to. We have a giantic full-auto pumkin farm on our island. Almost 2 thousand pistons produce enough pumpkins to make us incredible rich, even if the villagers at spawn would be removed right know, we would still have dozens of stacks of Emmy blocks n our faction bank, enough to provide us with all we need forever. I really love to build, but rn I feel like I build out of boredom, I would't know what else to do.

Yep thats what I feel also.

Throwing in my 2 cents... first up, I just want it to be said that balancing a real world economy is incredibly difficult, if not impossible, even with thousands of people working together. Managing a Virtual one is no less difficult, simplified as it may be, its still prone to drastic shifts and unpredictability.

The biggest issue i think we can all agree stemmed from the emerald to diamond conversion. It should be noted that in 1.8, this was a healthy, necessary villager trade that had a truly positive effect on the economy. Before the inclusion of mending, there was no way around eventually having to replace armor and tools, god gear came and went quickly because it all sooner or later was unable to be repaired. There was a much higher need for diamonds for personal use. So naturally in going forward for 1.9 the trade was kept. Nobody had any idea how drastically mending would effect the vanilla experience and the inflation of diamonds. The diamond trade wasn't a blatent mistake made by staff completely ignoring players as a fair few seem to think, it was an existing trade that had worked well for some time that felt natural to move into the next update.

In hindsight, mending really messed up the economy. What I dont understand is why everyone thinks pumpkin / crop farms are issues. I have a farmer villager in my base that actually has a better deal on carrots than the villager in spawn, and hes got a 10 pumpkin / melon per emmy trade as well, and thats straight vanilla, Emeralds are meant to be easy to come by. I realize this compounds the problem set by the emerald to diamond trade, but the farms themselves arent an issue whatsoever. The argument also can't be made that having personal access to villagers is too OP. While the 1.11 change to zombie spawners certainly makes access to zillagers much more difficult, this is a problem unique to Craftymynes, as mob griefing is off, if it were on like in a standard survival world, villagers would be stupid easy to breed, even with the 1.11 update. Even all things considered, with enough time, its still relatively easy to breed villagers and create your own market.

But enough with the econony problems, we all know they're there and we're basically repeating ourselves, we need to focus on our options.

Everyone seems to be clamoring for a map reset but that introduces a policy issue. Players need to be reassured to some degree that another map reset isnt just around the corner with every update. Thjs map isnt even that old, it was just created in february or march if i remember correctly. Just to clarify, Id be okay with a map reset, Id wager I have one of the larger bases on the server and having to start over would be fine. But I think we should look to other online gaming economies for a solution.

My personal reccomendation for a fix would not be a map reset, or a diamond wipe, but a currency conversion / payout and then eliminate the jeweler villager altogether. World of warcraft has done this frequently in the past with marks of honor / honor points / arena points. They changed the currency and coverted everyones existing "old currency" to the current market equivalent in gold coins.

Now it would work for us like this. Admins and Crafty would determine an acceptable base limit on diamond. Say 20 diamond blocks for the sake of example. Any players with more than that would be stripped of any and all excess and paid a conversion of emeralds... think imminent domain here. FOr the good of the server were taking all your excess diamonds away, but youll be paid fairly in emeralds for them.

This is the most fair and least invasive way to "reset" the server economy. It doesnt call for a complete map reset, and there isnt a massive disparity of inconvenience based on how long youve been playing. IF you have less than that 20 diamond block limit when the "imminent domain payout" happens, you wont even be affected. If youve amassed like 900 diamond blocks, youll be paid their worth in emeralds. Likewise if youve only got 100 diamond blocks, you be paid less emeralds, but the same rate as everyone else.

This would not damage the economy or start it off unequally whatsoever, as emeralds are easy as hell to come by in vanilla already and are meant to be available in these quantities, the people who have so many diamonds have that many because they farmed that many emeralds available to them in a vanilla setting. They would have that many emeralds had the diamond conversion never existed.

From the buyout point onwards, remove the jeweler altogether. From there, it could then be decided whether or not to revert all spawners back to normal or not but i feel thats another issue altogether.

This makes more sense than a reset. If we reset youll lose all your diamonds, gear, building progress anyways. This way everyone gets to keep their bases and gets compensated equally and fairly based on their current level of wealth.

My main concern about this idea is tracking the diamond blocks. Is there any way to precisely know how many diamond blocks does a player have? I mean they could just lie about it...

I'd like for you to expand this idea a bit further. As I see it, the logistics of this would be even more of a pain for the admins than making a new server, as (1) players could lie about how many diamonds they have and (2) inactive players wouldn't have their diamonds "cashed out" and would return to still have an inflated supply of diamonds. Essentially you're asking for a pseudo-reset in player wealth without a map reset, and maybe this would be ideal but I fail to see the logistics of it.

side note: even in a successful reset like you're asking emeralds would have close to 0 value since there would be so many of them on the server. I think that there is an emerald to diamonds (or pretty much any item to diamonds) ratio that can work, but it should be determined naturally by players trading with each other

This idea would be based on a few assumptions because I dont fully understand what tools Crafty is able to utilize:

- Setting the "buyout day limit" whether its 20, 30, 40 diamond blocks etc, im sure theres a statistical average of how many diamonds casual / regular / hardcore players on the server have That Crafty can see. Based on that, set the limit so that it would rule most inactive / casual players out as they probably wouldnt have this "set amount" to begin with, and even were they over that limit a little bit, it wouldnt have much of an effect on the economy going forward. Just to clarify this would just be a one time thing for the purposes of the economic reset, there wouldnt be an imposed "diamond limit" after the buyout you can amass however many you want, but theyd only be available through mining / exploration / trade with other players.

-It may require a conversion "period" where people are paid out over time instead of all at once.

-Every player has sethome data. Players hiding or lying about the actual amount of diamonds they really have wouldnt be possible. Inventories can be cleared and any chests near their sethome can be found and sorted through by admins. How do you think admins already go about getting rid of illegally obtained diamonds of xrayers? It would be the exact same process. Players only options would be to hide their diamonds in a chest far and away somewhere, but even then, I know that crafty has the means to literally trace the steps of every single player on the server. Even in the incredibly unlikely event someone managed to succeed in hiding their wealth somehow, the richest players on the server would be willing to comply and these "stubborn few" wouldnt have that much wealth to disturb the new economy anyway. In the event that they did however, during this "conversion period" the amount of diamonds people have could be closely monitered somehow im sure. It would be a little like imposing martial law for a little while... but a radical and intrusive conversion is really the only feasible option.

- I dont know how easy exactly it would be to payout each player, but im sure once you rule out everyone under the then set "diamond block limit", and the actual number of active players, it wouldnt be a horribly high number of players.

Also this would in no way whatsoever effect the value of emeralds , this seems to be something that people arent understanding. Emeralds are stupid easy to get in vanilla minecraft. See below.

these are the villager trades available to all players in a vanilla setting. As you can see 8 pumpkins for 1 emerald exists, this isnt unique to the trader at spawn. its also possible to get AN EVEN BETTER RATE for crops than whats available at the trading post. I have a villager in my base that gives me an emerald for 15 carrots. Emeralds are "next to worthless" by design. Thats literally the nature of emeralds in Vanilla.

The players who have excessive amounts of diamonds right now traded ridiculous amounts of emeralds acquired by farming the old fashioned vanilla way. If we reset the map right now, someone could go find a village on the new map, startup a pumpkin farm and have a double chest of emerald blocks in a week.

Its actually Harder here on Craftymynes. In a normal vanilla setting, villagers are stupid easy to breed with mob griefing on. Access to emeralds through farming trades are even more readily available.

The people who would get the most emeralds from the payout, would literally already have that many emeralds in a strictly vanilla setting to begin with. They would actually most likely have more.

I see the same issue here with your suggestion KinkyBobo. People can lie easily, or forget about a hidden chest of diamonds, or MIA players would return without the conversions done. This idea is an ideal for a perfect world and we are not a perfect world. People are greedy, unaware, and forgetful and someone would slip through this method, messing up the economy again. And if somehow the admins are in fact able to track down every last player that has ever earned that much, how difficult would that be? How much time would that take? The admins have busy lives and probably can't dedicate as much time as this method would take up. And it would indeed require an enforced martial law. But why would anyone, including the admins, want to instill that kind of forced behavior on a game. A GAME. It doesn't seem right. If complete admin control over every single player, who just want to play a game, was enforced in the way you imply, a lot of people are going to leave.

I also agree with removing specifically the emerald to diamond trade, or even the entire jeweler villager, but only that one. I see no harm in the other villagers giving out somewhat rip-off trades and weapons, or the farmer, as I have 2 farmers at my base, both with better trades than at spawn, and the wool one is extremely helpful for art and building after it was nerfed. And to bring up the point, anyone can do the wrong thing and abuse the villagers, no matter the trade. That's always going to be a risk with having villagers readily available to everyone. The best that can be done about that is make the trades as fair as absolutely possible, taking into account the people that abuse them and how to prevent that. Getting rid of the villagers would take away just another thing that makes CraftyMynes unique and successful and would ultimately hurt the server with a decrease in popularity.

@Kinkybobo Emeralds are "next to worthless" by design

I certainly agree with this point, and I think this supports the idea that an artificial emeralds to diamonds trade is broken (we've completely beat this idea into the ground at this point). One of the minecraft limitations that honestly fucked the vanilla economy is that it's possible for players to easily exchange as few as 10 5 (judging by your image) "worthless" emeralds for broken enchantments such as mending and fortune 3. This is why I support leaving mobgriefing off in the future to make it as hard as possible (although still relatively easy) to exploit these OP vanilla trades

My suggestion may or may not be a logistical nightmare. It all depends on the tools and data that Crafty has access to. From what I understand it doesn't seem like too much of a stretch... Im just presenting what I see as the most logical option from the limited amount of understanding I have of the server.

You really have to compare this to the only other proposed alternative: A complete map reset. Which is a guaranteed PR Nightmare. Pick your poison here. While many are okay with starting over, there are many who have invested a lot of work into builds that would be annoyed and justifiably frustrated. It would also set an unnerving trend... whats to stop another economical misstep from upending the economy in the future. We have no idea what new enchant or block or mob drop could cause a shift. another major update could be right around the corner.

They'd also have to rebuild spawn on the new map, and the command blocks etc... they might be able to copy paste to a degree, but theyd be loading it into a 1.11 map so the seed could present completely new geography theyd have to work around. A map reset presents its own set of hurdles staff has to overcome as well.

@Kinkybobo How do you think admins already go about getting rid of illegally obtained diamonds of xrayers? It would be the exact same process.

This is only effective since admins can break their chests, and then since they player is banned neither they nor anyone else could ever access their ender chests again. We'd need to wipe the ender chest contents of all players, and even then I believe they could easily stash large amounts of wealth in secret chests even 1000s from blocks for their base if/when a reset is announced

my entire post has revolves around two separate arguments:
(1) an economic reset is necessary for the server to remain relevant in coming months/years
(2) the only way to adequately reset the economy is a full server reset

I personally believe that #2 is rock solid. It's what pretty much only @Kinkybobo has challenged, and unless I see a more convincing argument I don't see my opinion changing any time soon. I'd like to see more people talk about whether my assessment of the economy is correct or not, I seem to have the support of a few veteran players but I'd certainly like to hear more

+1 for server reset.
Always down to start over.

Just reiterating, I'm fine with a reset, even excited at the prospect of starting over. But a reset actuates every other issue that Crafty has a problem with, such as players losing items from craftycrates that they paid real money for like spawn eggs. In the associated threads for those issues, the trend has been against removing those things and a map reset not only does that but more... I feel like Crafty is looking for alternate solutions, im just throwing ideas out there

@Kinkybobo Just reiterating, I'm fine with a reset, even excited at the prospect of starting over. But a reset actuates every other issue that Crafty has a problem with, such as players losing items from craftycrates that they paid real money for like spawn eggs. In the associated threads for those issues, the trend has been against removing those things and a map reset not only does that but more... I feel like Crafty is looking for alternate solutions, im just throwing ideas out there

Maybe, in mind of a reset, everyone who has gotten craftycrates and subsequently lost their spawn eggs/valuables from the reset could be compensated with the suggested admin heads after the reset happens. Meaning that following the reset, all past/present vip+ are given one admin head up front when they are available online. Then admin heads would remain available through craftycrates only. That way, vip+ and server bill players that lose items they paid real money for can be compensated for giving up their craftycrate contents. They would then also get that months contents, including admin head if that suggestion is implimented, in addition to their compensated head. They're entirely cosmetic, so there'd be no real advantage while everyone is starting from scratch still.

55k players? Jesus, that's a lot of players.

I think a reset is a bad idea. While i wouldn't mind and i know a good lot of you guys dont either, we are only a small percentage of the players on the server. A lot of people would leave if we did reset, especially those who dont frequent the forums often. A reset should only be considered as a last ditch option, in my fin fueled opinion.
We cant remove already given out eggs, as it would make the players who paid for them feel annoyed and dissatisfied. The same is with diamonds and any other way of removing wealth from players by us.
The issue is the economy right? There is no point in considering such a drastic event such as a reset unless everything else has been considered. Some of you want one, and i get that, but a lot of players wouldn't. So other options
If the issue is the wealth of players and spawn eggs, there is another way. Create diamond sinks. Removing the diamond/emerald trade and create special villagers that sell items that are special. Examples could include some of the admin or staff heads, normal items with special lore and other assorted stuff. Nothing overpowered but something players with lots of diamonds would be willing to pay them all for.

There is only one good way to really find out wether a reset is wanted or not, we need to make a poll. And since we shouldn't forgot the default players who don't visit the forums we should make a shedule message ingame like the one for votes, leading everybody who clicks it to this forum thread and/or the poll. This way we can get a relatively good feedback from the entire community, not only the core players who discuss here. We should just make sure that those who vote have the possibility to see the pro and contra arguments that were discussed in here.

Yeah. something like a reminder to vote but a reminder to answer the poll. IMO, a week, especially in the weekends could capture a good sample.
For me. Im pro-reset. But if there will be a reset pls make the server more vanilla survival.

a reset negates everything that has been done so far some people have invested a large amount of time to make the server what it is and a reset would make that all a waste

A poll would actually possibly get us somewhere,
in the decision part anyway cause right now this is debate central but this thread has given out some great points to take into consideration, however we really can't magically tell the future of what would happen IF we did reset and how most would react to it.

Even if we reset, the flow of players would continue as it always has, new members would replace those who left.

@_Confederacy_ Even if we reset, the flow of players would continue as it always has, new members would replace those who left.

Not necessarily true. At some level we have to consider the difference between short term and long term players. Of course we want as many people to be drawn to the server as possible, but I'd argue that encouraging longer term players hold a bit more weight as they contribute more to the infrastructure of CraftyMynes through community building, promotion (through voting), and donations to keep the server running.
I'd like to propose that some of my ideas would both provide sustained interest for some veteran players in the long run as well as encourage a higher percentage of players who join the server and stick around for a longer period of time (at least a month or more). However, that's not something even a poll could show you

@cepheid Not necessarily true. At some level we have to consider the difference between short term and long term players. Of course we want as many people to be drawn to the server as possible, but I'd argue that encouraging longer term players hold a bit more weight as they contribute more to the infrastructure of CraftyMynes through community and promotion (through voting).
I'd like to propose that some of my ideas would both provide sustained interest for some veteran players in the long run as well as encourage a higher percentage of players who join the server and stick around for a longer period of time (at least a month or more). However, that's not something even a poll could show you

All you could do is reset and see the consequences.

I'm a 10000000000% against the reset for one reason:

We already had two resets. One when the server was hacked to jack shit and another when we went to 1.9 and basically made a new server which is considered as a restart. All that happened within a year if not less. Third map reset over a fucked up economy will make people leave the server.

I don't want to start all over again because of that issue. That jeweler fucked the economy up so yeah. There you have it.

I do see what you're saying but I don't see the current state of the server transitioning into the super long term (say 2 years from now for example) without unnecessarily drastically losing player interest. Of course this is a judgement call for crafty and the admins, but if there would have to be a reset in that period of time, I'm advocating for it to be done as soon as possible