The Case For TNT Duping

  1. 6 months ago

    To preface this post, I will say that I value the integrity of the server and want to keep things fun and fair for everyone. However, I do believe certain rules are arbitrary and unnecessary. I do hope that the staff of CraftyMynes read this post with an open mind and do not immediately dismiss it based solely on the fact that it is against the rules as of now, as the rules of the server have changed drastically since its conception (Remember when mob griefing and fire spread were off? As well as when TP trapping was against the rules).

    Firstly, we must define what TNT duping actually is. It is a duplication glitch of sorts, but one that is different than any other. This glitch does not duplicate the actual TNT item, it only duplicates the primed TNT entity that explodes shortly after. Why make the distinction? There is no tangible item gain to the player unlike other duplication glitches (carpet/rail dupe, item dupe, etc.).

    Well why do it if there is no tangible item gain? A multitude of reasons, but mainly for automated farms which must destroy blocks, as well as terraforming landscapes which, as of the 1.18 update, have gotten a significant makeover to both surface and cavern.

    Okay, but it's still a glitch and therefore cheating, right? Well, that's really up to interpretation. Nether roof travel is also technically a glitch as it was not originally intended by Mojang, but kept in the game (and also allowed on CM). Similarly, TNT duping was also not originally intended by Mojang, but have opted to not patch it out unlike other more serious glitches such as actual item duplication. Hell, even 0 tick farms were patched out.

    Alright, but won't all the TNT being duped cause more lag to the server? On the contrary, actually. Using TNT to excavate large areas as opposed to manually mining will cause less lag due to the amount of entities on the ground being drastically reduced. Unless you are regularly picking up and storing (or disposing) of unwanted blocks when mining, you are leaving more entities on the ground which have the potential to cause more lag. TNT on the other hand will remove ground entities within the radius of their explosion, eliminating this concern.

    In summary, TNT duplication is more useful than it is harmful to the community as a whole, and I do believe there is a place for it on CraftyMynes. I hope there can be actual consideration and/or discussion on the topic.

    Thanks for reading.

  2. Thanks for coming to us with this suggestion. I do appreciate some of your valid points, however, TNT explosions are one of the worst causes of lag on the server, lighting updates are trigged for all the blocks that are removed. Lag spikes are worse than a slight decrease in TPS. As 1.18 is mixup more resources intensive than previous versions with 50% more chunk generation, this would be not help.

  3. @CraftyMyner Thanks for coming to us with this suggestion. I do appreciate some of your valid points, however, TNT explosions are one of the worst causes of lag on the server, lighting updates are trigged for all the blocks that are removed. Lag spikes are worse than a slight decrease in TPS. As 1.18 is mixup more resources intensive than previous versions with 50% more chunk generation, this would be not help.

    During large Team Eye griefs in the past, I have not noticed lag spikes on the server itself, rather just large FPS decreases during the rendering of the explosions, but then again there were at least a few stacks of TNT being used in one go and I was in the middle of the action, unable to experience the spikes in other chunks. Were there many spikes during those times? I would say that if there were, then I would be in favor of setting a limit on the amount of TNT entities allowed at one time through the use of a duper (possibly even for placed TNT) for the same reason as the limit on loaded entities.

    I'm also not too certain of the number of people using TNT for things other than griefing due to the fact that it is hard to make in large quantities. As it stands, TNT's only real use is for griefing, when I believe it should have more use beyond that. If the spikes observed came from excessive TNT usage during griefs, then I think it would be fair to say that in moderate usage the impact of using TNT dupers on the server would be less than what occurs during griefs (especially true for small farms that use only 1 or 2 pieces of TNT every couple of seconds). What are your thoughts on this?

    Thank you for taking the time to read and respond, I appreciate it.

  4. @Schlocked To preface this post, I will say that I value the integrity of the server and want to keep things fun and fair for everyone. However, I do believe certain rules are arbitrary and unnecessary. I do hope that the staff of CraftyMynes read this post with an open mind and do not immediately dismiss it based solely on the fact that it is against the rules as of now, as the rules of the server have changed drastically since its conception (Remember when mob griefing and fire spread were off? As well as when TP trapping was against the rules).

    Firstly, we must define what TNT duping actually is. It is a duplication glitch of sorts, but one that is different than any other. This glitch does not duplicate the actual TNT item, it only duplicates the primed TNT entity that explodes shortly after. Why make the distinction? There is no tangible item gain to the player unlike other duplication glitches (carpet/rail dupe, item dupe, etc.).

    Well why do it if there is no tangible item gain? A multitude of reasons, but mainly for automated farms which must destroy blocks, as well as terraforming landscapes which, as of the 1.18 update, have gotten a significant makeover to both surface and cavern.

    Okay, but it's still a glitch and therefore cheating, right? Well, that's really up to interpretation. Nether roof travel is also technically a glitch as it was not originally intended by Mojang, but kept in the game (and also allowed on CM). Similarly, TNT duping was also not originally intended by Mojang, but have opted to not patch it out unlike other more serious glitches such as actual item duplication. Hell, even 0 tick farms were patched out.

    Alright, but won't all the TNT being duped cause more lag to the server? On the contrary, actually. Using TNT to excavate large areas as opposed to manually mining will cause less lag due to the amount of entities on the ground being drastically reduced. Unless you are regularly picking up and storing (or disposing) of unwanted blocks when mining, you are leaving more entities on the ground which have the potential to cause more lag. TNT on the other hand will remove ground entities within the radius of their explosion, eliminating this concern.

    In summary, TNT duplication is more useful than it is harmful to the community as a whole, and I do believe there is a place for it on CraftyMynes. I hope there can be actual consideration and/or discussion on the topic.

    Thanks for reading.

    I agree with this a ton. Both for raiding and for server projects, that's a really good idea. My only worry is if too many are running and the lag that it'd cause but I don't think that's entirely fair.

  5. @Schlocked During large Team Eye griefs in the past, I have not noticed lag spikes on the server itself, rather just large FPS decreases during the rendering of the explosions, but then again there were at least a few stacks of TNT being used in one go and I was in the middle of the action, unable to experience the spikes in other chunks. Were there many spikes during those times? I would say that if there were, then I would be in favor of setting a limit on the amount of TNT entities allowed at one time through the use of a duper (possibly even for placed TNT) for the same reason as the limit on loaded entities.

    I'm also not too certain of the number of people using TNT for things other than griefing due to the fact that it is hard to make in large quantities. As it stands, TNT's only real use is for griefing, when I believe it should have more use beyond that. If the spikes observed came from excessive TNT usage during griefs, then I think it would be fair to say that in moderate usage the impact of using TNT dupers on the server would be less than what occurs during griefs (especially true for small farms that use only 1 or 2 pieces of TNT every couple of seconds). What are your thoughts on this?

    Thank you for taking the time to read and respond, I appreciate it.

    While small uses of tnt/tnt related farms would not cause much lag. Like Faerisong mentioned, if tnt duping was allowed, the amount of farms using such a mechanic would increase exponentially, and with say, 20 separate tnt duping farms running at many different bases the lag would be quite noticeable.

  6. Deleted 6 months ago by odolitus
  7. @CommanderCat_ While small uses of tnt/tnt related farms would not cause much lag. Like Faerisong mentioned, if tnt duping was allowed, the amount of farms using such a mechanic would increase exponentially, and with say, 20 separate tnt duping farms running at many different bases the lag would be quite noticeable.

    I think you may be overestimating the number of people that would not only be likely to build these kinds of farms, but also all play at the same time and be loading the chunks at the same time. They're also quite loud and annoying, wouldn't want to run it constantly anyways. I get your point though, I just really don't think it would cause anything noticeable to the performance of the server.

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