Regarding VIP's ban (I couldn't see a way to add a comment on their appeal), I wanted to add my two cents - if that's acceptable. I don't believe the use of the F3 pie chart is explicitly banned or implied. It's vanilla functionality of the game, but a grey area for sure. A corollary would be breaking bedrock blocks, which while part of vanilla, is prohibited in the rules. My apologies if I've missed the PieRay note.

During my years on the server, several players have discussed the feature. Notably with mods/admins online at the time, who didn't interject. I'm a builder, not a base seeker, so have never really dabbled - but - my personal belief was this wasn't banned per se.

I think it'd be wonderful if the rules could be updated to include this. I'd also like to massively underscore I appreciate the admin and mod team that works to keep the server safe, inclusive, and free of individuals looking to seek advantages.

P.s. I don't know VIP, and I am again hugely thankful to the admin/mod team - not looking to upset anyone. Perhaps a rule clarification though would be good.

Hi, I understand ur point but breaking Bed Rock is a glitch more or less, using pie ray isn't, a glitch which is why it's not in the rules, Pie ray is simply a tool to help players identify what causes lag or what specifically are the entities in their render distance. I also asked a mod 2 "is pie ray to find bases allowed" "yes". I understand you think its nonsense lmao but its also a skill that some people can learn to use to find bases or to hide their bases better.

Bedrock probably was a poor example :) I meant it inasmuch, hey you can do it in vanilla. But the rules clearly say you shouldn't on the server. Same goes for 0 tick farms, portal farms etc.

Unless I've missed it there's no such caveat for the pie chart, banning it on the forum. Given that it's part of F3 (which everyone uses for coords/entities anyway) it's really easy to see how a few players might not assume it's banned.

> and free of individuals looking to seek advantages.

It's not advantage seeking if its readily and easily accessible to everyone on the vanilla client. If it really is an "advantage" the server should turn on reduced debug info since this shitty lego block game has a built-in xray in its debug menu and many other sources of obscure information that can be used to find bases, but that will never happen because "muh coordinates"

its not banned or it wouldve been made a clear rule, if server admins don't want people using it, they can turn it off the debug menu especially since this is not something new, this has been in the game for ages.

It has been said it’s not allowed and there will be consequences if people use it! Also think it’s a cheat too because it forces people who don’t want to be found to be severely limited to the blocks to avoid being found via pie chart. On top of some people sweating their ass off trying to find bases using such tactics is ridiculous and takes away from the vanilla experience of making any sort of red stone builds or having a low entity count to prevent players from finding bases that way too. The whole ordeal is just another way of running valuable players off the server and making most people’s experience worse, which in turn will lessen the chances of people staying on the server and reduces income for the server which will in turn cause the server to shutdown due to lack of funds. This is also why it’s frowned upon to spam kill new players that have nothing. What’s going to happen when 80% of the server is ran off and crafty shutdown the server? These players will have to find another server to do the same shit at and same shit will most likely happen.

If you are going to say something like, "It has been said it’s not allowed and there will be consequences if people use it!" please do the bare minimum and at least show some evidence this was ever said. Arguing that players on a vanilla server should not be allowed to use vanilla features is absurd. Where does the line get drawn? Next you will argue we should not be allowed to look at the entity count on the F3 menu because high entity counts point towards player activity. If you can reason that the pie chart should not be allowed because it "takes away from the vanilla experience," you are not far off from reasoning that coordinates, and the F3 menu as a whole should not be allowed. To me, it is ridiculous this topic even needs a debate.

@outshOtz If you are going to say something like, "It has been said it’s not allowed and there will be consequences if people use it!" please do the bare minimum and at least show some evidence this was ever said. Arguing that players on a vanilla server should not be allowed to use vanilla features is absurd. Where does the line get drawn? Next you will argue we should not be allowed to look at the entity count on the F3 menu because high entity counts point towards player activity. If you can reason that the pie chart should not be allowed because it "takes away from the vanilla experience," you are not far off from reasoning that coordinates, and the F3 menu as a whole should not be allowed. To me, it is ridiculous this topic even needs a debate.

Well you were there when the admin restated this yesterday so no I don’t have a screenshot because I don’t screenshot everything that’s said. And you are right it’s pointless to argue because what’s been done is done. Move on.

Well clearly its a issue for staff to resolve, there's no clear rules on it and I have been told by a mod 3 it is allowed... this isn't a new thing that was just added to the game, its been here forever, it doesn't give you an unfair advantage since everyone has it and is only a matter of learning how to use it. I believe I remember you asking me how it works and I explained it to you and you even tried using it? does that make you a cheater? I assume not. As I've mentioned a million times its a vanilla function, everyone can use it, and it gives no advantage to anyone, besides this point, finding a base based on pieray such a slim chance anyway, sure if the servers render distance was set at 30 or something, it would be over powered and id understand.. but its not, so finding a base with pieray is a very slim chance and the only reason I found the base was because I had cordinates.

I believe this incident hinges on the section of the rules that says: “This means anything that gives you an unfair advantage over players who are playing the game the way the game was intended to be played.” I don’t believe Mojang intended for players to use the debug screen to find otherwise well hidden bases.

If it were up to me, the rules would be updated to be even more specific to this issue.

I think if we’re being honest this method feels like it’s cheating, because it is cheating. Standard players are just digging and placing blocks while other players are basically playing an entirely different game in the debug menu.

It’s sad to imagine this exploit being allowed and all players having no hope of having a useful base that can be reasonably hidden.

Unfortunately, from what I’ve read, the pie chart cannot currently be disabled on a vanilla server.

To be clear, the point of my post was to hopefully clarify the rules so everyone is on the same page. While ThePhoenix writes that staff in game have explained the feature should not be used - I've never seen that (I'm not disputing it was said). Again, I've seen numerous players discuss the feature in game and not been corrected. Feels like there is definitely some confusion we can clear up.

To underline, it's not explicitly excluded in the rules, which the in game command links to. I realize a completely exhaustive list will never be feasible, but we do specifically rule out game-breaking things, like multi-dimension farms for example.

I appreciate the point about the generalized "unfair advantage" clause, and can see that would apply here; still given the use of the feature by numerous players, I suspect it needs to be specifically called out.

This is where you are wrong, its not an exploit, "An exploit is a method or piece of code that takes advantage of vulnerabilities in software, applications, networks, operating systems, or hardware, typically for malicious purposes" that is the definition of exploit, the debug menu is a simple f3 button which again for the 10th time, every player has access to which you can simply see what blocks leaves your base vulnerable. As I said finding bases with pieray is such a slim chance without knowing the general area or a base or getting extremely lucky.

Either way, I believe it’s as Timmy has said Mojang doesn’t intend for people to use a debug menu

And i dont believe its an unfair advantage, since anyone can learn to use it like I did. since everyone has access to it. just the same way people learn to farm in game, does that give a unfair advantage to people who have insane wither farms and totem farms since some people don't know how to? Thats a genuine question since its a skill you have to learn. Or a tutorial to watch. You learn to build a totem farm and while a player may have an endless supply of totems another may not since they don't know how to build one. There are tons of videos on how to use and explaining pie.

@ThePhoenix And you are right it’s pointless to argue because what’s been done is done. Move on.

Staff specifically asked that discussion of the topic be moved from in-game to the forum. I think when a long-term player is banned, in what *might* be deemed a grey area, a thoughtful discussion isn't out of order.

@oroJefe Staff specifically asked that discussion of the topic be moved from in-game to the forum. I think when a long-term player is banned, in what *might* be deemed a grey area, a thoughtful discussion isn't out of order.

You only took a snippit of what I said this was referring to arguing about if an admin has said its not allowed or not and him asking me to post a screenshot of it being said.. Arguing over that is trivial and pointless is what that statement was referring to

@ThePhoenix You only took a snippit of what I said this was referring to arguing about if an admin has said its not allowed or not and him asking me to post a screenshot of it being said.. Arguing over that is trivial and pointless is what that statement was referring to

My bad, I took it to mean we shouldn't amiably discuss the use of F3 and this particular ban.

@oroJefe My bad, I took it to mean we shouldn't amiably discuss the use of F3 and this particular ban.

Its cool just found another great point though. When people can't get their way, and they throw a fit and do more shit thats not allowed to "get back" at the people that punished them. Crazy age we live in. Doesn't like that 0,0 tps u back to spawn so lava cast the damn thing so they can get their way

I would say the point needs clearing up and setting in stone. I would suggest 90% of the server has used it at least once. I'd err on the side of innocence here, that's just my thoughts..

@GondolaMan I would say the point needs clearing up and setting in stone. I would suggest 90% of the server has used it at least once. I'd err on the side of innocence here, that's just my thoughts..

I think that number is significantly high... more like 5-10%