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@SharpSerac first off, there are multiple end portals in a world, not just one. so you aren't funneling people through one end portal which is ironically what is happening right now.

secondly, the anti log in the arena only announces that you're a logger and has no real repercussions, especially to those who don't care if people call them a pvp logger (i'd say 95% of craftymynes' playerbase).

third, yes there are a lot of areas where people can pvp. what are your chances of seeing someone randomly outside of spawn literally anywhere but the main end island? lemme just tell you it's not a high chance. i think it's very disingenuous to say that this is a server where you "can pvp" but then say "oh well a lot of people don't want to pvp on the server so we should have a lot of safety nets for those players." no. this server is advertised as having pvp and raiding/griefing. they knew that when they found the server, so they know what they're getting into. if i go and create a server and advertise it as a grief and raid server but then it turns out there's also land claim and i just say "well if you can find a way around the land claim or find a base without it you can grief and raid all you want" wouldn't you say it was disingenuous to advertise it that way in the first place?

finally, no one is stopping the new players from going out and getting enderpearls. it's just not going to be as simple as "walk down those stairs right there and get to the end" it'll be more like "here's three sets of coordinates, choose one and be careful because there might be people there" which to me doesn't seem like we're infringing upon their right to go to the end.

Of course there is multiple portals in the world however it's inevitable that the closest one will be used.
Not only that but it would need some sort of protection to prevent it being a nuked hole in the ground making it the defacto end portal since it may be the only one not lava casted over.
They can't be camped at the spawn funnel, they can at the closest ender portal as happened when we used to not have one in spawn which directly lead to it being moved to spawn for the reasons I'm illustrating.

Secondly, the anti log is as good as we can get in vanilla without publishing people with bad connections and having issues on restarts. It directly contradicts your claim we never cater to pvpers.

Thirdly, I know the chances are low. That's because people don't want to pvp. The server doesn't revolve around team eye and other pvpers wishes. If people don't wish to be found and engage in pvp that's their right. We shouldn't force them too, just to please some pvpers.

How is it disingenuous? That makes no sense, we modify the server to improve the player experience of the most players we can.

No it's not disingenuous to claim such, we don't go advertising the server as a pvp server. Yes we mention it is enabled in the descriptions but it's not a selling point. The server doesn't claim to be pvper friendly or they it's a focus of the game.
More over, one of the main reasons it is activated is not to have a factions with out factions experience but the fact that we have no technical method in which we could prevent pvp and griefing.
Sure we could disable pvp but then we'd have invincible griefers.

No but you are making it much harder on them which negatively impacts our new player retention which is low as it is. Look at craftys stats on how few players stay.
Never mind the fact the majority of people killed in the first hour by God gear rage quit. The server needs new players more than it needs to let some pvper camp the end portals.

@SharpSerac also, there is still a natural progression on servers whether you want to believe there is one or not. it's just a matter of whether or not you want to see it. you don't magically start out with full diamond armor, you work towards it. you can join a server and within 10 minutes have steak and full iron armor. starting with that i don't feel is a big enough deviation from natural progression. i do, however, think that giving them access right from spawn the ability to go to the end (ironically enough, the end is an "end game" dimension, hence the name that was given to it) completely turns the progression on it's head. at least make them walk a thousand blocks, it's not going to kill them

It's not a natural progression, it's a progression yes but not a natural one, That is the nature of SMP as I stated, the fact they can enter the nether instantly, tp thousands of blocks away, get killed, get griefed, start with iron, have good instantly.
Shows that there isn't a natural progression, sure either a progression but it's not natural. Therefore there's no reason beyond your own opinion of what the progression should be to change the end portal.

@SharpSerac furthermore, i would like to add that the pvp arena is only useful for those that want to pvp. that number is already an underwhelming minority, but couple this fact with the fact that others can jump in to a fight which was once a fair 1 on 1 and now make it a 2 on 1 fight instantly. this makes a lot of people afraid to actually fight in there, hence why it is barely ever used. i can guarantee you if i had an alternate account and decided to play through the entire game from noob to god gear and above without being killed by another player, i could do it a thousand times over. this server caters way too much to the non-pvpers on a server where pvp is enabled by designating us to an arena that has too many faults to be considered a good place where pvp can happen. i actually think that there should be more areas in which players have to go around other players so that more pvp can actually occur, however the one being discussed right now is the end portal which by moving it would actually help more than just the pvpers, it would help the regular player that wants unobstructed spawns at their farms by new players that don't know what exactly they're doing in the end

Yes that is the intention of the arena, if you don't want to fight you don't have too. We aren't going to force people into it.
I would be of the camp however that would support a 1 on 1 arena as well. To address current arena issues, even though you can rtp together.

Yes if players don't want to be found then we shouldn't force them into situations where they will be.
As I explained earlier, just because we put pvp in our description doesn't make it a selling point of the server because as we all well know it isn't. Cm doesn't advertise itself as a pvp server, just as a normal server that happens to have pvp and road enabled mainly due to technical necessity.

I'm sorry you don't feel we cater to you enough but the fact is pvpers are a small minority therefore in the interst of the majority of players we do what they want, which isn't creating more spots they can be pvped without consent.

Noobs have just as much right to end as you, doesn't matter if they don't know what they are doing. We aren't going to move it to make it harder for them because you want more spawns.

Not going to get into a debate just wanted to state i wouldn't be against removing the portal all together, a little work never hurt anyone vanilla style .

Okay I haven't read every point of argument here but I'll put in my two cents:

I think the portal at spawn is really nice. Helps newbies a lot and lets people get to the dragon and such much easier. As for enderman spawn rates, I'm kind of confused, because the simple grinder I got from @javonjw works wonderfully. We know spawn rates aren't great on this server. I really don't think removing the spawn portal will help much.

In the case that the end portal were to be removed from spawn and portals close by would be camped, players could easily use invis pots to sneak by said campers to enter the end safely, since invis pots were enabled recently.

@iwarriiori In the case that the end portal were to be removed from spawn and portals close by would be camped, players could easily use invis pots to sneak by said campers to enter the end safely, since invis pots were enabled recently.

You can thank me for that bud

I like the portal at spawn, but I do think there could be improvement with its location. The portal room is literally the first thing anyone sees when they go to spawn. If it was moved to a side, or only accessible through a teleport pad similar to the one that sends you to the trading area, it might deter random new players from immediately seeing a pretty portal perfectly centered in a room just waiting to be explored while driving up their entity count along the way. And my enderman grinder works far better than I even want it to sometimes, often completely oblivious to how many players are online, and it's not even a good grinder compared to others.
On the pvp side of this debate, if the end portal was in the wild and unprotected, I would never go to it, even with god armor and any kind of health or invis pot. Because, knowing the pvpers and established campers/noob killers on this server, there is a near 100% guarantee that a camper will be there, ready to tp in his friends and kill whoever is just trying to get some epearls. That's not pvp, that's a slaughter. It's unfair and would shift control specifically to the pvp-oriented and the long term players who have the best gear. The question some of you keep bringing up for self-esteem boosting tactics that you so desire would not be "who has the egg?" but instead "who owns the portal?" or something along those lines. Because the day the portals are made unsafe is the day they become property to those who can best fight. They become off limits to literally everyone else.

@R4iscool1 Of course there is multiple portals in the world however it's inevitable that the closest one will be used.
Not only that but it would need some sort of protection to prevent it being a nuked hole in the ground making it the defacto end portal since it may be the only one not lava casted over.
They can't be camped at the spawn funnel, they can at the closest ender portal as happened when we used to not have one in spawn which directly lead to it being moved to spawn for the reasons I'm illustrating.

you know, i happened to be there during that time the end portal wasn't in spawn and i don't remember it being a big crater. i knew there were some people that camped it but that just made it all the more fun because there was risk going to the end. also if you wanted to go to the other portals just use a nether portal lmao it's really not that hard.

@R4iscool1 Secondly, the anti log is as good as we can get in vanilla without publishing people with bad connections and having issues on restarts. It directly contradicts your claim we never cater to pvpers.

why is it that you always bring up bad connection as an issue? i can tell you right now that @Qfu thrives on his shit connection and he will confirm this as will @iwarriiori. the amount of people who will lag out during pvp i can tell you right now will be <0.1% because lagging out in and of itself doesn't happen that often. and in the case of restarts, it's really simple to add an exception to the pvp logging rule or reset the pvp log scoreboard after everyone is kicked from the server and before the server is stopped. i wouldn't put it past crafty to find a way around your supposed problem. also the thing about you catering to the pvpers? i'll agree that things were added for us, but i don't think that they ultimately help us that much in the end.

@R4iscool1 Thirdly, I know the chances are low. That's because people don't want to pvp. The server doesn't revolve around team eye and other pvpers wishes. If people don't wish to be found and engage in pvp that's their right. We shouldn't force them too, just to please some pvpers.

just go ahead and answer this question for me right now, i'll even bold it for you so you can't miss it:
WHY WOULD YOU JOIN A SERVER WHICH HAS PVP IF YOU EXPRESSLY WANT TO AVOID PVP? THERE ARE OTHER SERVERS IN WHICH PVP IS DISABLED.

@R4iscool1 I'm sorry you don't feel we cater to you enough but the fact is pvpers are a small minority therefore in the interst of the majority of players we do what they want, which isn't creating more spots they can be pvped without consent.

how would you know if people that enjoy pvp are a small minority? you've never polled the entire playerbase, i'm sure a lot of people who like pvp don't even have god gear but who would ever know?

@R4iscool1 Noobs have just as much right to end as you, doesn't matter if they don't know what they are doing. We aren't going to move it to make it harder for them because you want more spawns.

i don't know why you keep restating this, no one is infringing upon their right to go to the end. did you know that by moving the portal then everyone, not just the new players will have to go to the portal outside spawn? also since when are you the sole decider for changes to the server? last time i checked crafty was the owner, not you.

@Dennari43 Well said.

@SharpSerac I'm truly not trying to be rude, but I do want to point out this legit just sounds like you whining: "But I love pvp and so do my friends!" Exclude Team Eye, and almost everyone who has played this server for a decent amount of time will tell you that the community isn't largely PVP-based. It's just not. Team Eye does not equal the majority of people.

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And I'll restate this to go along with what Dennari said - I still fail to see an issue with the portal's current location. Enderman grinder spawns seem fine to me. If it's an issue then move it somewhere else in spawn, but turning it into Team Eye's playground doesn't seem like a good idea for a server with a fairly peaceful community.

I agree with @R4iscool1 on this one.

@NerdieBirdieYT @Dennari43 Well said.

@SharpSerac I'm truly not trying to be rude, but I do want to point out this legit just sounds like you whining: "But I love pvp and so do my friends!" Exclude Team Eye, and almost everyone who has played this server for a decent amount of time will tell you that the community isn't largely PVP-based. It's just not. Team Eye does not equal the majority of people.

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And I'll restate this to go along with what Dennari said - I still fail to see an issue with the portal's current location. Enderman grinder spawns seem fine to me. If it's an issue then move it somewhere else in spawn, but turning it into Team Eye's playground doesn't seem like a good idea for a server with a fairly peaceful community.

I agree with @R4iscool1 on this one.

nerdie, why would you join a server that has pvp enabled if you want to expressly avoid pvp? sounds illogical right?

@SharpSerac nerdie, why would you join a server that has pvp enabled if you want to expressly avoid pvp? sounds illogical right?

Because the raiding aspect excites me. Don't act like I'm in the minority here when I join without wanting much PvP XD

How dare you diss my Nigerian connection !

@SharpSerac you know, i happened to be there during that time the end portal wasn't in spawn and i don't remember it being a big crater. i knew there were some people that camped it but that just made it all the more fun because there was risk going to the end. also if you wanted to go to the other portals just use a nether portal lmao it's really not that hard.

Well my memories and screenshots for that matter on skype of us discussing how we had to repair the portal and the path to it for the millionth time differ from that assessment. It was holy as hell and we had less players back then too and spent more time cleaning spawn.
The problem with the other portals tends to be they are even more likely to be griefed and lava casted over than the main one which staff at least watch. Other people don't find it as fun as you do to be camped there.

@SharpSerac why is it that you always bring up bad connection as an issue? i can tell you right now that @Qfu thrives on his shit connection and he will confirm this as will @iwarriiori. the amount of people who will lag out during pvp i can tell you right now will be <0.1% because lagging out in and of itself doesn't happen that often. and in the case of restarts, it's really simple to add an exception to the pvp logging rule or reset the pvp log scoreboard after everyone is kicked from the server and before the server is stopped. i wouldn't put it past crafty to find a way around your supposed problem. also the thing about you catering to the pvpers? i'll agree that things were added for us, but i don't think that they ultimately help us that much in the end.

Maybe it's because I have a terrible connection to this server and as such I sympathize with many of the Euro players that also do, some even have to avoid spawn altogether when it's busy.
I personally DC quite a bit, pvp or not as do many others, if you are going to create a system to encourage pvp then you are excluding a large amount of potential candidates right there and then with that format.
That said if Crafty put his mind to it, I'm sure he could fix reset problem but frankly bigger priorities right now.

@SharpSerac just go ahead and answer this question for me right now, i'll even bold it for you so you can't miss it:
WHY WOULD YOU JOIN A SERVER WHICH HAS PVP IF YOU EXPRESSLY WANT TO AVOID PVP? THERE ARE OTHER SERVERS IN WHICH PVP IS DISABLED.

Maybe because there is no popular vanilla servers with pvp disabled and the fact this community is advertised as a community fun orientated server not a raid and grief one.
The primary reason raid and grief are enabled is the fact turning them off in vanilla would cause problems, this isn't a pvp server no matter how hard you try to make it out to be.
It's a community server that just happens to have pvp enabled, exactly how it's advertised in the server list. In fact the raid and grief enabled are at the very bottom of the description as an after note.
Playing Vanilla isn't solely for the pvp, many players come here as a mostly peaceful but with a slight edge alternative to toxic factions.

@SharpSerac how would you know if people that enjoy pvp are a small minority? you've never polled the entire playerbase, i'm sure a lot of people who like pvp don't even have god gear but who would ever know?

i don't know why you keep restating this, no one is infringing upon their right to go to the end. did you know that by moving the portal then everyone, not just the new players will have to go to the portal outside spawn? also since when are you the sole decider for changes to the server? last time i checked crafty was the owner, not you.

Well you can easily judge from Arena participation and the fact most of the regulars have wide circles of friends they trust that it's not a pvp server. As you said yourself there is very little pvp relatively here.
If you dispute my numbers feel free to raise your own, maybe do some spot chat polls but it's disingenuous quite frankly when you already know the answer.

You are claiming that the End portal should be moved because noobs may not know what they are doing in the end, that is a claim that puts your rights to the end above a noobs. It's quite simple to follow.
Of course everyone will have to go that way, it will just disproportionately affect noobs, lead to more rage quits and there's the whole thing that the majority of the server doesn't feel like getting camped going to the end.

I'm not the decider nor have I ever claimed to be, I'm just stating my opinion as you are stating yours and pointing out some of the flaws in your reasoning. So that we can have a discussion on what's best for the entire server not just the pvpers. Hopefully Crafty will then agree with the outcome of that discussion.

@R4iscool1 We aren't going to move it to make it harder for them because you want more spawns.

first off, this is the point where you put yourself in the position as the big wig that makes decisions for the server, so you can't say you didn't do that lol.

@R4iscool1 You are claiming that the End portal should be moved because noobs may not know what they are doing in the end, that is a claim that puts your rights to the end above a noobs. It's quite simple to follow.
Of course everyone will have to go that way, it will just disproportionately affect noobs, lead to more rage quits and there's the whole thing that the majority of the server doesn't feel like getting camped going to the end.

i'm not putting my rights before noobs, i'm putting existing players before the newer players. not their rights, just what i feel would be better for them.

this discussion will honestly get me nowhere, and i have things i need to do which are more important than a block game. i'll let other people argue from here

@SharpSerac first off, this is the point where you put yourself in the position as the big wig that makes decisions for the server, so you can't say you didn't do that lol.

That is my opinion of what we as the playerbase should do just as your opinion that the server should move it. What is wrong with that ?
I don't quite get why you can't understand staff can have an opinion on how the server should be run too, not just you.
It seems any time a staff member states their opinion they are acting the big wig to you...
By saying that we should do this you are also putting yourself in the position of decision maker also.

@SharpSerac i'm not putting my rights before noobs, i'm putting existing players before the newer players. not their rights, just what i feel would be better for them.

this discussion will honestly get me nowhere, and i have things i need to do which are more important than a block game. i'll let other people argue from here

Well you are an existing player and since you are putting their rights first, yes you are putting your own rights first.
Noobs don't need you to tell them they can't go to the end because it's hurts other players spawn rates, if they want to go let them.
I don't think you will find many willing to argue for it's moving but sure, real life should always come first.

@R4iscool1 Noobs don't need you to tell them they can't go to the end because it's hurts other players spawn rates, if they want to go let them.

again, i don't know why you think we're completely preventing the new players from going to the end. there will still be a portal they can walk to lmao

i'm done here, there's just no arguing with you is there

@SharpSerac Noobs can't get past a guarded portal.