cepheid’s thoughts #1: state of the server and possible reset

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  2. 8 years ago

    This idea would be based on a few assumptions because I dont fully understand what tools Crafty is able to utilize:

    - Setting the "buyout day limit" whether its 20, 30, 40 diamond blocks etc, im sure theres a statistical average of how many diamonds casual / regular / hardcore players on the server have That Crafty can see. Based on that, set the limit so that it would rule most inactive / casual players out as they probably wouldnt have this "set amount" to begin with, and even were they over that limit a little bit, it wouldnt have much of an effect on the economy going forward. Just to clarify this would just be a one time thing for the purposes of the economic reset, there wouldnt be an imposed "diamond limit" after the buyout you can amass however many you want, but theyd only be available through mining / exploration / trade with other players.

    -It may require a conversion "period" where people are paid out over time instead of all at once.

    -Every player has sethome data. Players hiding or lying about the actual amount of diamonds they really have wouldnt be possible. Inventories can be cleared and any chests near their sethome can be found and sorted through by admins. How do you think admins already go about getting rid of illegally obtained diamonds of xrayers? It would be the exact same process. Players only options would be to hide their diamonds in a chest far and away somewhere, but even then, I know that crafty has the means to literally trace the steps of every single player on the server. Even in the incredibly unlikely event someone managed to succeed in hiding their wealth somehow, the richest players on the server would be willing to comply and these "stubborn few" wouldnt have that much wealth to disturb the new economy anyway. In the event that they did however, during this "conversion period" the amount of diamonds people have could be closely monitered somehow im sure. It would be a little like imposing martial law for a little while... but a radical and intrusive conversion is really the only feasible option.

    - I dont know how easy exactly it would be to payout each player, but im sure once you rule out everyone under the then set "diamond block limit", and the actual number of active players, it wouldnt be a horribly high number of players.

    Also this would in no way whatsoever effect the value of emeralds , this seems to be something that people arent understanding. Emeralds are stupid easy to get in vanilla minecraft. See below.

    -image-

    these are the villager trades available to all players in a vanilla setting. As you can see 8 pumpkins for 1 emerald exists, this isnt unique to the trader at spawn. its also possible to get AN EVEN BETTER RATE for crops than whats available at the trading post. I have a villager in my base that gives me an emerald for 15 carrots. Emeralds are "next to worthless" by design. Thats literally the nature of emeralds in Vanilla.

    The players who have excessive amounts of diamonds right now traded ridiculous amounts of emeralds acquired by farming the old fashioned vanilla way. If we reset the map right now, someone could go find a village on the new map, startup a pumpkin farm and have a double chest of emerald blocks in a week.

    Its actually Harder here on Craftymynes. In a normal vanilla setting, villagers are stupid easy to breed with mob griefing on. Access to emeralds through farming trades are even more readily available.

    The people who would get the most emeralds from the payout, would literally already have that many emeralds in a strictly vanilla setting to begin with. They would actually most likely have more.

  3. Edited 8 years ago by Dennari43

    I see the same issue here with your suggestion KinkyBobo. People can lie easily, or forget about a hidden chest of diamonds, or MIA players would return without the conversions done. This idea is an ideal for a perfect world and we are not a perfect world. People are greedy, unaware, and forgetful and someone would slip through this method, messing up the economy again. And if somehow the admins are in fact able to track down every last player that has ever earned that much, how difficult would that be? How much time would that take? The admins have busy lives and probably can't dedicate as much time as this method would take up. And it would indeed require an enforced martial law. But why would anyone, including the admins, want to instill that kind of forced behavior on a game. A GAME. It doesn't seem right. If complete admin control over every single player, who just want to play a game, was enforced in the way you imply, a lot of people are going to leave.

    I also agree with removing specifically the emerald to diamond trade, or even the entire jeweler villager, but only that one. I see no harm in the other villagers giving out somewhat rip-off trades and weapons, or the farmer, as I have 2 farmers at my base, both with better trades than at spawn, and the wool one is extremely helpful for art and building after it was nerfed. And to bring up the point, anyone can do the wrong thing and abuse the villagers, no matter the trade. That's always going to be a risk with having villagers readily available to everyone. The best that can be done about that is make the trades as fair as absolutely possible, taking into account the people that abuse them and how to prevent that. Getting rid of the villagers would take away just another thing that makes CraftyMynes unique and successful and would ultimately hurt the server with a decrease in popularity.

  4. Edited 8 years ago by cepheid

    @Kinkybobo Emeralds are "next to worthless" by design

    I certainly agree with this point, and I think this supports the idea that an artificial emeralds to diamonds trade is broken (we've completely beat this idea into the ground at this point). One of the minecraft limitations that honestly fucked the vanilla economy is that it's possible for players to easily exchange as few as 10 5 (judging by your image) "worthless" emeralds for broken enchantments such as mending and fortune 3. This is why I support leaving mobgriefing off in the future to make it as hard as possible (although still relatively easy) to exploit these OP vanilla trades

  5. My suggestion may or may not be a logistical nightmare. It all depends on the tools and data that Crafty has access to. From what I understand it doesn't seem like too much of a stretch... Im just presenting what I see as the most logical option from the limited amount of understanding I have of the server.

    You really have to compare this to the only other proposed alternative: A complete map reset. Which is a guaranteed PR Nightmare. Pick your poison here. While many are okay with starting over, there are many who have invested a lot of work into builds that would be annoyed and justifiably frustrated. It would also set an unnerving trend... whats to stop another economical misstep from upending the economy in the future. We have no idea what new enchant or block or mob drop could cause a shift. another major update could be right around the corner.

    They'd also have to rebuild spawn on the new map, and the command blocks etc... they might be able to copy paste to a degree, but theyd be loading it into a 1.11 map so the seed could present completely new geography theyd have to work around. A map reset presents its own set of hurdles staff has to overcome as well.

  6. @Kinkybobo How do you think admins already go about getting rid of illegally obtained diamonds of xrayers? It would be the exact same process.

    This is only effective since admins can break their chests, and then since they player is banned neither they nor anyone else could ever access their ender chests again. We'd need to wipe the ender chest contents of all players, and even then I believe they could easily stash large amounts of wealth in secret chests even 1000s from blocks for their base if/when a reset is announced

    my entire post has revolves around two separate arguments:
    (1) an economic reset is necessary for the server to remain relevant in coming months/years
    (2) the only way to adequately reset the economy is a full server reset

    I personally believe that #2 is rock solid. It's what pretty much only @Kinkybobo has challenged, and unless I see a more convincing argument I don't see my opinion changing any time soon. I'd like to see more people talk about whether my assessment of the economy is correct or not, I seem to have the support of a few veteran players but I'd certainly like to hear more

  7. +1 for server reset.
    Always down to start over.

  8. Just reiterating, I'm fine with a reset, even excited at the prospect of starting over. But a reset actuates every other issue that Crafty has a problem with, such as players losing items from craftycrates that they paid real money for like spawn eggs. In the associated threads for those issues, the trend has been against removing those things and a map reset not only does that but more... I feel like Crafty is looking for alternate solutions, im just throwing ideas out there

  9. @Kinkybobo Just reiterating, I'm fine with a reset, even excited at the prospect of starting over. But a reset actuates every other issue that Crafty has a problem with, such as players losing items from craftycrates that they paid real money for like spawn eggs. In the associated threads for those issues, the trend has been against removing those things and a map reset not only does that but more... I feel like Crafty is looking for alternate solutions, im just throwing ideas out there

    Maybe, in mind of a reset, everyone who has gotten craftycrates and subsequently lost their spawn eggs/valuables from the reset could be compensated with the suggested admin heads after the reset happens. Meaning that following the reset, all past/present vip+ are given one admin head up front when they are available online. Then admin heads would remain available through craftycrates only. That way, vip+ and server bill players that lose items they paid real money for can be compensated for giving up their craftycrate contents. They would then also get that months contents, including admin head if that suggestion is implimented, in addition to their compensated head. They're entirely cosmetic, so there'd be no real advantage while everyone is starting from scratch still.

  10. ATM, I don't have the time to possibly read all of this, but I can address a few things.

    @Kinkybobo Every player has sethome data. Players hiding or lying about the actual amount of diamonds they really have wouldnt be possible. Inventories can be cleared and any chests near their sethome can be found and sorted through by admins. How do you think admins already go about getting rid of illegally obtained diamonds of xrayers? It would be the exact same process. Players only options would be to hide their diamonds in a chest far and away somewhere, but even then, I know that crafty has the means to literally trace the steps of every single player on the server. Even in the incredibly unlikely event someone managed to succeed in hiding their wealth somehow, the richest players on the server would be willing to comply and these "stubborn few" wouldnt have that much wealth to disturb the new economy anyway. In the event that they did however, during this "conversion period" the amount of diamonds people have could be closely monitered somehow im sure. It would be a little like imposing martial law for a little while... but a radical and intrusive conversion is really the only feasible option.

    SetHomes are stored in each player.dat, it's not exactly the easiest thing to look through to find cords. Players can convert diamonds into many different forms and hide them in many different places. Turning diamonds into blocks and then hiding them somewhere on the map without leaving the game would leave no traces that I could track. Trying to scan 120gb of world data is not easy, and neither is looking through 55k players. This idea, sadly, is not feasible.

  11. 55k players? Jesus, that's a lot of players.

  12. I think a reset is a bad idea. While i wouldn't mind and i know a good lot of you guys dont either, we are only a small percentage of the players on the server. A lot of people would leave if we did reset, especially those who dont frequent the forums often. A reset should only be considered as a last ditch option, in my fin fueled opinion.
    We cant remove already given out eggs, as it would make the players who paid for them feel annoyed and dissatisfied. The same is with diamonds and any other way of removing wealth from players by us.
    The issue is the economy right? There is no point in considering such a drastic event such as a reset unless everything else has been considered. Some of you want one, and i get that, but a lot of players wouldn't. So other options
    If the issue is the wealth of players and spawn eggs, there is another way. Create diamond sinks. Removing the diamond/emerald trade and create special villagers that sell items that are special. Examples could include some of the admin or staff heads, normal items with special lore and other assorted stuff. Nothing overpowered but something players with lots of diamonds would be willing to pay them all for.

  13. Edited 8 years ago by Sofatroll

    There is only one good way to really find out wether a reset is wanted or not, we need to make a poll. And since we shouldn't forgot the default players who don't visit the forums we should make a shedule message ingame like the one for votes, leading everybody who clicks it to this forum thread and/or the poll. This way we can get a relatively good feedback from the entire community, not only the core players who discuss here. We should just make sure that those who vote have the possibility to see the pro and contra arguments that were discussed in here.

  14. Yeah. something like a reminder to vote but a reminder to answer the poll. IMO, a week, especially in the weekends could capture a good sample.
    For me. Im pro-reset. But if there will be a reset pls make the server more vanilla survival.

  15. a reset negates everything that has been done so far some people have invested a large amount of time to make the server what it is and a reset would make that all a waste

  16. A poll would actually possibly get us somewhere,
    in the decision part anyway cause right now this is debate central but this thread has given out some great points to take into consideration, however we really can't magically tell the future of what would happen IF we did reset and how most would react to it.

  17. Even if we reset, the flow of players would continue as it always has, new members would replace those who left.

  18. Edited 8 years ago by cepheid

    @_Confederacy_ Even if we reset, the flow of players would continue as it always has, new members would replace those who left.

    Not necessarily true. At some level we have to consider the difference between short term and long term players. Of course we want as many people to be drawn to the server as possible, but I'd argue that encouraging longer term players hold a bit more weight as they contribute more to the infrastructure of CraftyMynes through community building, promotion (through voting), and donations to keep the server running.
    I'd like to propose that some of my ideas would both provide sustained interest for some veteran players in the long run as well as encourage a higher percentage of players who join the server and stick around for a longer period of time (at least a month or more). However, that's not something even a poll could show you

  19. @cepheid Not necessarily true. At some level we have to consider the difference between short term and long term players. Of course we want as many people to be drawn to the server as possible, but I'd argue that encouraging longer term players hold a bit more weight as they contribute more to the infrastructure of CraftyMynes through community and promotion (through voting).
    I'd like to propose that some of my ideas would both provide sustained interest for some veteran players in the long run as well as encourage a higher percentage of players who join the server and stick around for a longer period of time (at least a month or more). However, that's not something even a poll could show you

    All you could do is reset and see the consequences.

  20. I'm a 10000000000% against the reset for one reason:

    We already had two resets. One when the server was hacked to jack shit and another when we went to 1.9 and basically made a new server which is considered as a restart. All that happened within a year if not less. Third map reset over a fucked up economy will make people leave the server.

    I don't want to start all over again because of that issue. That jeweler fucked the economy up so yeah. There you have it.

  21. Edited 8 years ago by cepheid

    I do see what you're saying but I don't see the current state of the server transitioning into the super long term (say 2 years from now for example) without unnecessarily drastically losing player interest. Of course this is a judgement call for crafty and the admins, but if there would have to be a reset in that period of time, I'm advocating for it to be done as soon as possible

  22. 8 years ago

    I agree 100% with iDogeTwinkie, Dannysharks, and sknup. There must be some other way to fix the economy than destroying these builds that people have spent hours on. As much as I love this server, I've been wondering if I would be able to keep going after a reset, just knowing that whatever progress I make could be wiped out at any time. A server reset should only be done if it is absolutely 200% necessary.

    For me, it's not about the wealth--I mean, I only have one diamond block to my name. It's about the builds:

    -image-

    -image-

    I'm sure there are many of these sorts of detailed builds on the server--I mean, take a look at sknup's screenshots, for Pete's sake! We should think extremely carefully before wiping out these builds and ruining this artwork, which has taken hours upon hours to make.

    If we remove the possibility of furthering the messed-up economy (e.g. removing the jeweler, not giving out spawn eggs anymore, etc.) and implement new ideas, isn't it possible that the economy will gradually right itself again as people continue to pay out what they've saved up?

    I just don't see the need to destroy builds to fix the economy. Maybe a more gradual fix is in order as opposed to just deleting everything.

    I also agree that a server-wide, not forum-wide, poll is in order, and it should run for at least a week in order to give everyone a chance to take it. Imagine coming back after a few days' absence to find your entire base gone, and everyone knew about it except you! D:

  23. Ok, so here we go.

    First and foremost I have no read much of anyone's post, and nor do I care too. People have their opinion and it isn't my place to argue with it. However, I would like to throw my 2 cents into this deep, winding hole that is a reset.

    I think there should not be a reset. Not only for the hours upon hours of work and time I've poured into my base, but also for the admins and them going through that same position but 10x worse for a new spawn, redoing of the command system and much more. All while undoubtedly being pressured by the community to do so. They'd have to do a new casino, spawn, parkour, RTP, VIP room, Donator room and much MUCH more. As for the newer players, their bases and items will be deleted while perhaps just being built. It also won't fix the economy. There will always be emerald overflow even without the villagers at spawn. This is due to farmers and their trades. As for diamonds, they won't be as abundant, worth more, but is that better? I think not. For people that find ways to make hundreds of diamonds, they'll be insanely rich. Being able to buy anything and everything from those who aren't rich. These things need to be concidered. This is just my opinion, take it however you like.

  24. I don't think the world should be reset until there is a major update that requires it. When the update occurs, then we should implement cepheid's suggestions. Until then, I suggest we keep the server intact because players tend to leave after a reset. A reset makes players lose everything that they've poured hours upon hours into making and building, so then they're like "welp, might as well go try a new survival server now," because they have nothing to lose. This especially applies to the silent majority of players who enjoy playing on CraftyMynes without being an active part of the community.

  25. So many of you guys are simply responding "there are other ways than a reset" or something along those lines. If there are other ways, then make suggestions. We'd love to hear any ideas you have, anything that might work. Because right now, there are not many suggestions that could, at the very least, sustain the economy from getting much worse than it already is. The only suggestion I see that could help right now is removing the Jeweler Villager. That might help prevent further harm to some degree, but the majority of the damage has already been done. Please, if you have any real ideas on how to save the server, we are willing to listen.

  26. Edited 8 years ago by Dannysharks

    @Dannysharks I think a reset is a bad idea. While i wouldn't mind and i know a good lot of you guys dont either, we are only a small percentage of the players on the server. A lot of people would leave if we did reset, especially those who dont frequent the forums often. A reset should only be considered as a last ditch option, in my fin fueled opinion.
    We cant remove already given out eggs, as it would make the players who paid for them feel annoyed and dissatisfied. The same is with diamonds and any other way of removing wealth from players by us.
    The issue is the economy right? There is no point in considering such a drastic event such as a reset unless everything else has been considered. Some of you want one, and i get that, but a lot of players wouldn't. So other options
    If the issue is the wealth of players and spawn eggs, there is another way. Create diamond sinks. Removing the diamond/emerald trade and create special villagers that sell items that are special. Examples could include some of the admin or staff heads, normal items with special lore and other assorted stuff. Nothing overpowered but something players with lots of diamonds would be willing to pay them all for.

    Cough i did make a suggestion, cough xD

  27. Who wants to write my school essays ?

  28. I didn't say you didn't make a suggestion Dannysharks, just that more should chip in with legitimate solutions. There probably are other solutions, but people need to speak up if they want them to be heard.

  29. You guys are pushing for a reset soo hard. It is sickening. People are voicing their opinions about not wanting a reset and why it shouldn't but you just come back with "doesn't matter, needs to be done". You think a reset is like cleaning a room but it is more like burning down a house.

  30. I'd rather "burn down the house" all at once than watch players slowly lose interest in the gameplay on the server over the next several months and eventually leave. I've experienced a decline in enjoyment of the actual gameplay recently (since I believe a functioning economy effectively extends the late game of vanilla minecraft to make it infinitely interesting), and I know others have as well

  31. I believe (if I remember correctly) that I made a couple of suggestions in past posts on how to fix the economy, such as changing the currency so what everyone's using right now isn't as valuable, letting the current system pay itself out over time, etc. What about CraftyCoins? Why don't we try using those as currency? Maybe we could limit the amount of person-to-person trading and create a server shop with more manageable currency.

    Basically, what I see is happening right now is that there's free money being made. Money is only valuable if there's a limited quantity, and currently people can make infinite diamonds. So, let's make currency that isn't infinite and exploitable.

    You could argue that people will still want to use diamonds as currency because of the many things you can make with it, but diamonds really aren't that valuable in the sense that we have mending now, and people don't have to keep making OP gear. I personally only use diamonds at the trading post for the most part. It shouldn't be that hard to set up a new system.

  32. @MagicalMapmaker What about CraftyCoins? Why don't we try using those as currency? Maybe we could limit the amount of person-to-person trading and create a server shop with more manageable currency.

    There have been too many arguments fighting for solely person-to-person trading instead of spawn villagers that this idea would probably never go through. The farther we change the system of trading, and especially if we create a designated currency, the farther we get from vanilla. We'd be stretching into an economy system server at that point, which is not what CraftyMynes is.

  33. I don't see how changing the currency would be taking us too far away from vanilla. We're already using CraftyCoins; I'm just suggesting making them more valuable and making diamonds less valuable. All we would be doing is creating an extremely similar system of trading based off of the old one, which I don't see as making us an economy system server. It's like a way of resetting the economy without resetting the server.

  34. If we make the common currency something other than a common valuable in vanilla gameplay, and establish shops to spend that currency at instead of trading with other players, then we are literally playing the definition of economy servers. Diamonds are already super devalued, along with every other item that should be expensive or of higher value than it is. We need to increase their value, not decrease it more. The system has become inflated, which means money(diamonds) are losing value. If I'm allowed to use historical reference here, think of Germany's economic crisis after WW I when they printed so much money that it was superinflated and completely worthless. That's what is happening to our economy. Decreasing the value of diamonds more would make this situation worse and changing the currency to CraftyCoins and setting up economy shops is too far from what CraftyMynes is to be a good response.

  35. In my opinion the world has plenty of room and unexplored areas. However the problem is that we do not have a way to truly get around. Sure we can tp but we do not have a way to actually explore the world in and efficacious manner. There are plenty of resources that can be obtained and used to fuel the economy. Although the reset could have benefits. So I do not mind one way or the other.

  36. @Dennari43 sorry, I should have been more clear. I completely agree that the diamonds are like Germany's printed money after WW1. They are already worth less, so I meant we should decrease use of them as opposed to decreasing their value. Thank you for correcting my error, and I hope this makes sense to everyone reading now.

    Does anyone else have opinions on whether a different sort of currency is too far from the vanilla experience? I think it isn't, but Dennari43 thinks it is. It would be nice to have other opinions, as this could completely shape the way the server runs and even possibly determine whether a reset is necessary.

  37. Why dont we actually set a system? Like any economy.
    Emerald 50
    Diamond=40
    Gold= 30
    Iron=20
    Coal = 10
    wood= 5
    I dont know just throwing ideas out there. lol

  38. The problem with changing the currency to CraftyCoins is that people would have to voluntarily use CraftyCoins in trades; making it more common and finally accepted.
    If we were to act headlong with switching our currency, it could present more problems. Therefore, I am dubious that CraftyCoins would be used as our currency.

  39. I agree that a server reset should only be used in the most dire of situations or if theres a update that smashes a system in the server or provides options for more efficient implimentation. I am also against a mandated currency because with the current system, people can in yheory trade whatever they want for a commodity they require assuming they have a person willing to make a trade (like if someone needs glass and has an abundance of wood but someone else has lots of sand but needs wood so they make a trade).

    but on the other side of the argument i also agree that the economy is extremely stacked in favor of the older players due to spawners and extensive villager trading operations that will be imposible and difficult to obtain in the future due to policy and game changes respectively.

    overall, im not for or against a reset

  40. i do not see that diamonds having a low value is a big problem. This is just like real life - if there is a glut then something will have less value. If something is valuable there will be an entrepreneur to fill the economy gap. There are always things that are hard to get like beacons or take work to produce. I dont use much wool - it is hard to get hold of. People are always after ink sacs. because they are too lazy to kill squid. It is just as question of looking for where there is a demand and filling it. i dont like going in the end and am happy to pay others in kind to get stuff from there.

    The economy is not bust - it has just settled with a diamond value that is unpopular with some. There is still plenty to barter with. Tinkering around with crafty coins will not make any difference.

    And as for some people having more - that will always be the case on any server that hasnt been reset for a while.

    If there is any justification for a reset it is that there are two changes, the zillager issue from the 1.11 update and the decision not allow future eggs to be put in spawners, thus affecting the prospects for new players.

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