Alright, thanks

I do love me threads like this. It's fun to read. Mostly because y'all get lost in every single direction.
Ah well lads, have fun resolving your issues with staff, I truly wish you good luck with that.
If I were involved in any of this shit, you know how would my response look like.
Time to shop, my paycheck arrived yesterday, gotta buy me some stuff. :)

P.S. I'm on no-one's side, neither staff's or player's. That being said, I'm staying the fuck out of this.

@iDogeTwinkie I do love me

Oh ya

@HaloNest Oh ya

I do love myself :P

As nearly every staff member as mentioned, if this thread turns into arguments over whether the word "slander" was used in the correct legal fashion and crap like that, then everyone may as well stop now.

If you have something to ADD to this discussion (as nearly all the posts since last night have), then feel free.

Most of you know me as a goofy but fair admin- i dont say shit without meaning and by the time im done writing im not even sure what topic im gonna be on, but i hope i can keep it relevant to the main.

Craftymynes is a community like no other in the minecraft world. The people here, the ones that stay, are wonderful and helpful and communicative, and we love that about you guys and gals.

We have one of the longest running vanilla servers, forerunners to almost every vanilla trick in the books to date, because the staff built and designed and protect the server to the best of their abilities.
With the exception of the founders, every one of our staff members was a player, who spent a long time on the server, with their own ideas and grievences, and joined the CM team to help make the place better.

But our job, above all else, is to make this place as safe and neutral as a sweedish bakery- That means for everyone, staff and players. I like to think we do a dam good job keeping riffraff to a minimum.

When someone decides to start pushing boundaries, we arent pushovers. We have thousands of hours dealing with people who think they know how to run our server better than us, who think they can skirt the systems, get people behind them because they "technically didnt break the rules, theres nothing written about doing that"... there shouldnt have to be. but now theyve forced it to be because they wouldnt let go of the thread of the idea that theyve someone got the upperhand.

Our staff is diverse, yes. Cold analytical minds, venting hotheads, bubbleheaded whositswhatsits- we have alot of different viewpoints, and we talk- alot. about everything. If someone is asked not to do something because its making someone uncomfortable, or is breaking unwritten but commonsense rules, or simply being stupid on purpose and continues to do so after being asked to stop, then told to stop and it dosent change because their wall on anonymity is a saftey bubble.. thats not someone you keep around. You keep around the players that laugh, and talk, and build and want to better the community- not the ones who dont care if they break it down.

bloody hell i need to learn that commas arent periods

@NerdieBirdieYT As nearly every staff member as mentioned, if this thread turns into arguments over whether the word "slander" was used in the correct legal fashion and crap like that, then everyone may as well stop now.

If you have something to ADD to this discussion (as nearly all the posts since last night have), then feel free.

No offense but personally I don't see how someone insisting using real life info isn't harassment adds to the discussion.
We don't use your personally indemnifying if no in game and we expect the same respect back, whether he let's other people he's very close with or not use it, is besides the point. An IP address is technically public domain so is an email but people wouldn't comfortable if we revealed that however. The fact that the info may be available publicly has no bearing on whether you should be allowed to refer to someone by their IRL info without their permission.
It's turned from issues with staff communication into grassing was banned unfairly. Which doesn't help with the threads stayed purpose.

@BaronBattleBread, well said. This in mind I would agree that staff protect the server from all sorts of crap. However, I would personally have seen Staff act differently or use the rules differently. If you are going to enforce the rules you should do it with out exception. I have seen staff use the rules for their benefit. I would feel more comfortable if the rules were enforced equally on everyone. Which in my eyes are not. I personally agree with you, I think our ADMINS and staff do a fine job when protecting us from perdition on the server and I thank you. It is just sometimes you see something that is not justified and no one stands up for anyone. When you do you get your a** handed to you.

Wait a second I just read a couple of previous messages abd this is what I got:

You can't call somebody by nane aka "handin out personal info" unless you're either digital-datin' that person (no shit that's great for ya') or you have some "good"reasons... that's a bit, strict?
But if staff tells you to stop, regardless the apparent reason you gotta stop that's what most people tend to missunderstand staff do what they have to do...
So yes, you can't allow some players stuff and forbid it to others, you either get over it or forbid it to everybody.
CraftyMyner didn't unban JSN_ just because he's an OG, you don't allow yer lady to call you per name because you two are engagin'.
No shit vene, my personal Photoshop guide, I really like you and respect you, this isn't really anything to be pissed off about.

One last thing, what's wrong with calling per name?
I can kind of understand if it's something related to your pride, maybe you got a name which you don't like or something like that, you shouldn't imo, but it's understandable.
But giving out personal info that's a bit of an exageration since there are millions of people called like you, maybe those people even share your same surname (try searching your name and surname on facebook, and see).
But it's too late now, we all know that you're a russian secret agent and your name got exposed :P .

Also while writing this one immage popped out in my mind:

Just to sdramatise, I really have nothing against staff, I'm actually geateful towards them.

:^)
P.S.
Witness why GIMP skills vene xD

@Ealdwine_Drasax @BaronBattleBread, well said. This in mind I would agree that staff protect the server from all sorts of crap. However, I would personally have seen Staff act differently or use the rules differently. If you are going to enforce the rules you should do it with out exception. I have seen staff use the rules for their benefit. I would feel more comfortable if the rules were enforced equally on everyone. Which in my eyes are not. I personally agree with you, I think our ADMINS and staff do a fine job when protecting us from perdition on the server and I thank you. It is just sometimes you see something that is not justified and no one stands up for anyone. When you do you get your a** handed to you.

Can you give some examples of where you think rules were used to staff advantage or applied unequally.
We can't change if you don't give us the how and why you think we were wrong in a situation.

@HaloNest a person's personal info is there right alone. If they choose to deny it to anyone with or without reason that's their rights. In real life, no one has the right to your personal data either, every site you sign up for legally is required to have you consent to them collecting identifying data. If someone is uncomfortable about someone they don't know calling them by their first name then they have the right to ask them to stop. As grassling was told to do, when we asked him to stop calling staff by name.
People have a right to privacy and given the harassment we have had on this server before, we are especially aware of that here.

Like I've said before would you be comfortable if we posted you emails and IP addresses which are also public info?

@R4iscool1 We cannot all see players ips when they log on but we can see everything said in global chat (Venes name)

@Grassling @R4iscool1 We cannot all see players ips when they log on but we can see everything said in global chat (Venes name)

How does that make a difference?
If I understand correctly the majority of the arguments here have hinged on the idea it's public info, just like an IP address and email are.
People have a right to the privacy of their own info.

Public means that every single person has access to the information?? I dont know how you can argue against that even if you use your alt again. @R4iscool1

Litterally, it's open information that's all over, if people don't want people knowing or seeing it, It shouldn't have been posted for the whole world to see, that's vens fault for making it public information for the world to know

@GrandpaCarl00 Litterally, it's open information that's all over, if people don't want people knowing or seeing it, It shouldn't have been posted for the whole world to see

The same ideal can be applied to an IP address.
However I do see where you are coming from with regards to posting it however, knowing the info doesn't give you the right to use it.
Google knows all our info however unless we have consented to them using it, they don't have the right to violate our privacy.

@R4iscool1

Though I don't agree 100% with everything that @Grassling has done, You got to keep in mind that public information whenever it'd be publicly posted or doxxed, people are going to use it no matter what feeling or thinking mindset you come from, that's just how the world is going to roll

Especially if it's publicly known information that the person whoever had decided to make so public, It's somewhat silly to get mad over something like that, emphasis on somewhat as I'm saying it's also to a degree justifiable to be mad.

People call me Macy in public chat all the time in which I don't mind
yet it would be a tad weird if a stranger started calling me by that name instead of people I know well.

It would be weird sure but It wouldn't devastate me. I think people have a right in respect to be asked for it to stop though.

Technically stating, When such things are discussed. In the Judicial Court one's personal name is only personal in the sense of protection. If the individual willing presents data or information to the public ie. a name. It is considered public knowledge and the individual can no longer have control.
For example: John joins a server. His server name is RocketMan, he can legally keep his name a secret. If he wishes to present his name in the open on this server he has no control over it. Unless he feels that the individuals using it are threatening him or are doing something that actually infringes on his rights as a US citizen. If on this server someone uses John instead of RocketMan and is no way of malevolent content it is not considered harassment.

Now lets say Jack uses John's name and John asks him to stop then it is still not considered harassment. Becasue at that point if John presented his name to the server in open chat then it would be considered public knowledge. However harassment does occur when John is used with a malevolent intent.

Now I am not defending or choosing sides here but in the grand scheme of things did Vene screw up for putting his name in public chat. Hell to the ya. But should Grassling use it if it made him uncomfortable no, according to the united states law grassling is not infringing on any law or rights. However he still should have paid attention to Vene's request.

this all may not matter due to where the server is actually stored cause in that case US law is not supported, unless Grassling is a citizen of the united states while playing on the server.

However a Server can not legally share or distribute personal data without the persons consent. But players may willing distribute their personal information if desired. So I mean in the end all of ya'll are in a stale mate.

*Takes a sip of win and looks at this smiling as I drop the mic!

@GrandpaCarl00

I understand people will use that info, especially on the Internet but that doesn't give them the right too.
If a player is uncomfortable with their real name being used then we will stop the players using it, since that is their right.

@Ealdwine_Drasax @Pimpcy

Respectable, It's going to feel weird someone who you're not familiar calling you by a first name, but then again, It's not the worst thing to do a person such as releasing addresses, PO boxes, and such.

Ealdwine keep in mind ven has his name public aside from minecraft as he actively comments on @NerdieBirdieYT 's videos.

Tbh, if I'm right, Grassling was banned super quickly for using his public name/ or warned multiple times, and to be fair, I felt like Grassling deserved a final-warning sort of thing rather than a quick ban based off emotional bias.

Is it weird? yea. Does it deserve a sort of punishment? You betcha. A full on ban? Nah.

@R4iscool1 feel free to correct me on the exact details of the ban bc tbh, I'd rather not go through huge essays again in 180+ comments

He was warned before this for using personal names Grandpa.
We didn't just ban him straight off the bat for using a name, he had used them in the past and we asked him to stop referring to staff by their first name he didn't.
This combined with his previous bans and the fact he actively claimed admins spawned in items for him lead to a permanent ban.
We can't keep giving final warnings if someone doesn't listen we do have to ban them.

My point exactly, Vene's response is bias and in the grand scheme of things unjustified in my opinion. Do I agree some form of atonement should have been taken? Yes, but there should not have been a perm ban. I could agree if actual harassment had been committed.

@R4iscool1 would you agree venetourm politley asking me one time would be sufficient? I used his name once got banned once. And for the 50th time I was never warned for simply using personal names I was warned for revealing personal information. If you could please stop ignoring this detail and address it it would be appreciated.

Speaking of the word harassment, It has been used quite alot in this thread and used quite loosely, to simply refresh everyone's memory on what it actually means..

'' ha·rass·ment
[həˈrasmənt, ˈherəsmənt]
NOUN
aggressive pressure or intimidation: ''

@Ealdwine_Drasax My point exactly, Vene's response is bias and in the grand scheme of things unjustified in my opinion. Do I agree some form of atonement should have been taken? Yes, but there should not have been a perm ban. I could agree if actual harassment had been committed.

How is his response bias?
Vene asked permission in staff chat and he was then told grassing has been warned about using names before ergo he was to be banned.
His ban was then deliberated and given his previous bans and other offences it was decided he was no longer welcome here.

@Grassling @R4iscool1 would you agree venetourm politley asking me one time would be sufficient? I used his name once got banned once. And for the 50th time I was never warned for simply using personal names I was warned for revealing personal information. If you could please stop ignoring this detail and address it it would be appreciated.

How am I ignoring this info?
Using someone's name is revealing personal info, even if that info is available elsewhere. It's not your right to spreads someones info unless you get their express permission which you did not. We don't post your IP even though tis available publicly elsewhere and you may have revealed it elsewhere nor your email as we respect your right to privacy.

Alrighty then,

@R4iscool1 @HaloNest a person's personal info is there right alone. If they choose to deny it to anyone with or without reason that's their rights.

I stated that you either allow everybody to expose your "personal data" or you forbid it to everybody otherwise it's something that I define as:

U N F A I R

@R4iscool1 In real life, no one has the right to your personal data either.

You don't actually give yourself a name it's actually your parents (usually) to decide your "very personal data". Believing it or not, every govern has a full list of their population data, everytime you renew your ID card the new data is sent to the headquarter where it is stored. You are added to a list when you furst were born.
We're not talking about the atlantean conspiracy, it's just real life and you should know better.
As you wrote earlier every site you sign in to has access to a portion of your super secret data.
The hostital you were born are forced to keep a document with the parameters and circumstances of your birth.
The bank has access to credit cards and they need to identify who they are dealing with.
The school you (maybe) used frequent has access to your data.
Retailers do have your personal data.
Telecom providers are among the few ones who can actually know and store your IP legally, so do internet providers.
Insurance companies do have your data.
Sport clubs have the right to know your personal data even if I douvt this is your case.
Hotels do have your data such as phone number and more detailed ones.
Companies that give you money have the right to knoe your own data.

Conventionally the name is retained public data, as stated by the age old corporation called "common sense inc"
If I ask you what's your name we need no Einstein to conclude it is rude to not reply.

@R4iscool1 every site you sign up for legally is required to have you consent to them collecting identifying data.

Oh, I knew that!
Plus you can create fake credentials did you know that?

@HaloNest reason you gotta stop that's what most people tend to missunderstand staff do what they have to do...

@R4iscool1 If someone is uncomfortable about someone they don't know calling them by their first name then they have the right to ask them to stop. As grassling was told to do, when we asked him to stop calling staff by name.

I spot a repetition.
V
V

@HaloNest Why do you keep arguing like that mate?
Sometimes feels like you argue just for the sake of arguing..

Yes, I'm concluding.

@R4iscool1 Like I've said before would you be comfortable if we posted you emails and IP addresses which are also public info?

The IP address is not linked to a person, it is a digital address associated to an internet device.
To share an IP address is not a crime because IP addresses is not retained private data as long as you are not a bot or a cyborg.
It is different when it comes to email address, it is directly bonded to a certain person, therefore it is a crime to leak it, it isn't just a matter of I would or O wouldnt be happy.
So you were wrong on both the IP and the address.
I asked my uncle for this and he's an internet security expert, so don't you dare to debate about this. (Which you will do anyway).

I can understand the bs, but now you're missinforming people.

Yep, you're missinformed my man.

P.S.

After your reply to my message I recieved 3 PM's complaining about your apparent "stupidity"
Not sayin'''

P.P.S.

Don't call me HaloNest please, it hurts me, it hurts me really bad.

Halo out

@HaloNest Alrighty then,
I stated that you either allow everybody to expose your "personal data" or you forbid it to everybody otherwise it's something that I define as:

U N F A I R

You may define it as unfair but that doesn't change their fundamental human right which is present in many legal systems around the world. Such as the EU for example.
I personally believe that your opinion no offense, is secondary to their rights.

@HaloNest You don't actually give yourself a name it's actually your parents (usually) to decide your "very personal data". Believing it or not, every govern has a full list of their population data, everytime you renew your ID card the new data is sent to the headquarter where it is stored. You are added to a list when you furst were born.
We're not talking about the atlantean conspiracy, it's just real life and you should know better.
As you wrote earlier every site you sign in to has access to a portion of your super secret data.
The hostital you were born are forced to keep a document with the parameters and circumstances of your birth.
The bank has access to credit cards and they need to identify who they are dealing with.
The school you (maybe) used frequent has access to your data.
Retailers do have your personal data.
Telecom providers are among the few ones who can actually know and store your IP legally, so do internet providers.
Insurance companies do have your data.
Sport clubs have the right to know your personal data even if I douvt this is your case.
Hotels do have your data such as phone number and more detailed ones.
Companies that give you money have the right to knoe your own data.

Conventionally the name is retained public data, as stated by the age old corporation called "common sense inc"
If I ask you what's your name we need no Einstein to conclude it is rude to not reply.

I don't know what country you are talking about but most countries don't actually have a centralized ID system at all, in fact considering the main countries relevant being the US and Canada, neither of which have centeralized ID cards and personal data is usually in the hands of the state/province not the central government as a whole. Meaning it's fragmented and mostly incomplete, in fact google probably knows more about you than the federal government does at the moment, unless you are a person of interest to an agency.
Do you know what it's in common about all those things you listed which have your personal data, to retain your data and more importantly to share it with others, they need your permission to do so even if you revealed that data elsewhere in the public domain. To give your name to a person or company google would need to get your permission which they most likely already did in the TOS you probably didn't read. Which brings us back to the whole grassling did not have permission to do so.
This might be of interest to you Wiki Article on central ID systems.

@HaloNest Oh, I knew that!
Plus you can create fake credentials did you know that?

I have no idea what this means, yes you can enter false info if you wish but as I described companies need your permission to share your info even if you posted it publicly elsewhere.

@HaloNest The IP address is not linked to a person, it is a digital address associated to an internet device.
To share an IP address is not a crime.
It is different when it comes to email address, it is directly bonded to a certain person, therefore it is a crime to leak it, it isn't just a matter of I would or O wouldnt be happy.
So you were wrong on both the IP and the address.
I asked my uncle for this and he's an internet security expert, so don't you dare to debate about this. (Which you will do anyway).

No it isn't a crime, I never said it was I simply asked would you be comfortable with us posting it and therefore linking it to you ?
Just like posting someones name links the name to them even if other users or people have the same name. Can you see the similarity ?
How was I wrong about the IP address, I asked you would you be comfortable, how can a question be wrong ? That doesn't make sense.
Just to note I do study and work in the field of AI, more specifically AI that deals with a large amount of personal data, therefore I'm very very considerate when it comes to the matter of personal data since I know it's power.

@HaloNest Yep, you're missinformed my man.

P.S.

After your reply to my message I recieved 3 PM's complaining about your apparent "stupidity"
Not sayin'''

P.P.S.

Don't call me HaloNest please, it hurts me, it hurts me really bad.

Halo out

Please how am I misinformed ?
All you have done is just made a strawman of me, claiming that I said an IP address was personal info and that I would leak your email when all I asked is would you be comfortable with it being posted. Since the email retains the same protection your name does in most jurisdictions.

I'm not really concerned if people consider me stupid but thanks for informing me I guess...
I'd rather they address the points I'm making but they can insult me instead if they wish.

Okay I will respect you and refer to you as Halo from now on.

Gotta remember, names are used all the time, people don't have to constantly ask '' Can I use your name? ''

Names are given out all the time, facebook, dinner reservations, dating sites, going to your mom or friends house, school, getting pulled over by cops?

Should all of those people need to ask ''Do I have permission to use your name?''

No but by giving your name to someone directly it's generally regarded as an implicit permission to use it.
Facebook, a cop and a restaurant would need to request your permission to give your name out to other parties. Unless of course they were legally bidden to do so by other statutes.

It's important to take this into context to, this is the internet not real life where first names are used as identifiers. Those in my mind at least, are two different levels of private info.
I personally would mind someone on the internet using my real name as it is identifying and personal info which I wouldn't give away.
We are all anonymous entities on the internet after all and we have the right to stay that way and our personal info be kept out of the hands we don't wish using it.

I think this discussion has could be quite educational actually, as this is a an issue being debated at this moment by legislators, internet rights campaigners etc
How far does the right to privacy go vs the right to freedom of expression on the internet and how does personal data affect our lives and what right and controls do we have over it.

I didn't know you're the kind of guy who actually seeks knowledge on wikipedia, the online encyclopedia where everybody can writhe their own shit and you should know that wiki is just a tool in gov's hand.

How are youinformed?
You have no fucking clue what's going on you just searching stuff on freaking wikipedia as fast as you can and you're even telling me to CONSULT it,
Yoy said IP is private data -> IP is not private data, and you're telling that to people!
_says Halo in a Gordon Ramsay like tone_

And no you're not stupid you're missinformed man, and you're making yourself look stupid, and people notice it, and people PM me.
You're making yourself hated!
"No it isnt a crime"... fuck me I must be Nostradamus!!

@HaloNest I asked my uncle for this and he's an internet security expert, so don't you dare to debate about this. (Which you will do anyway).

You clearly don't know your facts, please stop it

P.S.
This time you won the "longest message award"

@HaloNest I didn't know you're the kind of guy who actually seeks knowledge on wikipedia, the online encyclopedia where everybody can writhe their own shit and you should know that wiki is just a tool in gov's hand.

Which government though ??? Is there a government conspiracy that controls the internet ?
Seriously, Wikipedia is actually a rather good tool when it comes to scientific and technical subjects that aren't controversial. Not quite research quality but definitely good for casual information such as which countries have ID systems that are central, instead of looking them all up individually.

@HaloNest How are youinformed?
You have no fucking clue what's going on you just searching stuff on freaking wikipedia as fast as you can and you're even telling me to CONSULT it,
Yoy said IP is private data -> IP is not private data, and you're telling that to people!
_says Halo in a Gordon Ramsay like tone_

I did not say an IP address is personal data, I don't think you actually read my post. Please quote the exact area I did, if you think so.
What I said was would you be comfortable with me posting that info and therefore linking it you.

@HaloNest And no you're not stupid you're missinformed man, and you're making yourself look stupid, and people notice it, and people PM me.
You're making yourself hated!
"No it isnt a crime"... fuck me I must be Nostradamus!!

You clearly don't know your facts, please stop it

P.S.
This time you won the "longest message award"

Okay I'm not really interested in who you asked for insight, nor am I interested that you have PM's about people that think I'm stupid. Repeating these statements aren't going to change that.
Also for the last time I never said it was a crime, read what I said and quote me exactly where if I'm lying.

Your turning what was actually turning out to be a civil and relatively informed debate into a condescending flame war. Please if you wish to continue cease with the insulting and attack my argument not me.

Oh now Im the dumb one insulting you, it's called opinions my man, and I'm not gonna shut the fuck up, I'll stand even if that means standing alone.

@R4iscool1 No it isn't a crime

Yea you didn't have a freaking clue mah boy.
You should take the PM's as a feedback and actually stop it.
Plus I read you post $&@;with a but of laughter I must admit €÷@¥!
And yes wikipedia is a tool, but you're not smarr enough to get it.

Back up brodie

P.S. America and Canada have different laws about data, but when they decide to interact with a foreign country they must obey their data laws

@Grassling And for the 50th time I was never warned for simply using personal names I was warned for revealing personal information. If you could please stop ignoring this detail and address it it would be appreciated.

Were you giving out other information that pertained to his person? Were you mentioning his height? Weight? Background? Other irl info about him? If not, then by process of elimination, the name revealing is the only personal information you were using and you should have easily been able to figure that out, as it is info about him personally. And it is not public knowledge. Despite my many, many hours spent on CM and even talking directly with Vene, I never knew his real name. Probably less than 1% of the entire CM community was now aware of his name, and that's with the assumption everyone was paying attention to chat and knew who Juli was talking about in the first place. It's probably a smaller percentage with the amount of players that have been on versus can be on at a time. And considering I would only be able to learn his name still by either asking him or a close friend that also knows his name, it's not public info. What you're considering public is like hearing a person in a crowd calling a person by name and then assuming, because you overheard that name, you have a right to call them that as well without their permission or even talking to them about it. This is not a perfect example, but it's fairly to the point.

@GrandpaCarl00 Gotta remember, names are used all the time, people don't have to constantly ask '' Can I use your name? ''

Names are given out all the time, facebook, dinner reservations, dating sites, going to your mom or friends house, school, getting pulled over by cops?

Should all of those people need to ask ''Do I have permission to use your name?''

facebook- They ask for your name and you willingly give it.
dinner reservations- They ask for your name and you willingly give it.
dating sites- They ask for your name and you willingly give it.
going to your mom's house- That's your mom, they gave you your name.
friends house- That's your friend, you gave them permission when you met and became friends.
school- They ask for your name and you willingly give it.
pulled over by cops- They ask for your name and you willingly give it.

this situation- They did not ask. You did not give permission or even tell them your name. They found out your name and used it without your permission.

What even...