@NerdieBirdieYT Deleting a post made to complain (justifiably, in my opinion) about staff should be seen as a suggestion or a critique, not as a bash to the head. If players are repeatedly noticing problems in the staff system (which Grassling mentioned, and I can confirm), they should be brought to attention, not hidden away because staff doesn't want their title slandered.

So, the way I see this situation is not so much that staff are trying to hide their mistakes or keep their reputation "clean", it's more so that threads like that tend to turn into a manhunt-- anyone with issues against staff can reply and cause the thread to snowball into something much more than a simple suggestion or critique. Thus, a lot of those threads are locked/removed to avoid that from happening. If anyone has a direct issue with staff, they really should bring it to our attention via a private message. That way it can be dealt with easily, without escalation.

@Naidae Understandable. This is public because it's a big, controversial issue that affects most people on here, not just me. Everyone has something to contribute and ideas to suggest. I don't know all that staff has/hasn't done, and I can't fix this with a PM.

@NerdieBirdieYT @R4iscool1 Regarding the Grassling situation, it was not "abuse" using the first names of staff members. Grassling mentioned he knew that staff was called by first names by other players.

Whether his ban was fair or not is not the point. It's what he said after his appeal in the deleted thread (which included nothing breaking rules, so why remove it in the first place? it was a locked thread anyways) that connects to this community. Many, MANY players have left because of rude staff or pointlessly strict enforcement of rules.

Should rules be enforced? Of course.
Should private info be leaked? Obviously not.

But to say that staff's enforcement of rules and general demeanor is NOT an issue to the community at large is blindness. I've been here for three months and it's blatantly obvious to me and most of the playerbase here.

@R4iscool1 Please do not give me the crap of "What should we do? Offer cookies to hackers?" and the like when I am being mature, honest, and allowing for community input on a big issue on CM. I'm not saying we abolish the rules. As for a solution, well, that's why this thread is public, because I am not intelligent enough to come up with a perfect solution on my own.

You say this isn't an issue? Look how fast this post has generated responses in the past hour or so. Look around.

Yes it was abuse, he was repeatedly told not to use them names as it made staff feel uncomfortable and we have had incidents of severe harassment of staff before.
We don't deserve to be harassed, so please don't expect us too.
Do you expect strangers to call you by your real name on the Internet?

I already told you, we wanted to formulate a response to avoid it spiraling, clearly didn't work. It wasn't a locked thread either.
Can you cite examples, insisting that many people left isn't going to change anything unless you give us the details and explain why you think we are wrong.
I don't believe the current stance we take is pointlessly strict, I think it's suit our community quite well personally but we can't have this discussion without you giving us the why.
It isn't a staff issue either, so stop making it out to be. It's about how the rules are and how you want them to be. We only enforce the rules.

Once again you need to explain what and why our demeanor is wrong.
Personally I believe most of the community would disagree with your assessment as well, the most vocal people tend to be the ones who have a complaint not those that appreciate.

Well if we don't have alternatives what can we do, breaking the rules must be backed up by force that's the only way it works.
Offering cookies as I pointed out doesn't work, the whole basis of society is based on the measured application of force just like Cm.

So far we have had 3 complaints, the most vocal people tend to be the ones with complaints.

@NerdieBirdieYT @R4iscool1 Regarding the Grassling situation, it was not "abuse" using the first names of staff members. Grassling mentioned he knew that staff was called by first names by other players.

He was asked to stop referring to staff members by the first names and he kept doing it. He already had prior warnings.

@NerdieBirdieYT Whether his ban was fair or not is not the point. It's what he said after his appeal in the deleted thread (which included nothing breaking rules, so why remove it in the first place? it was a locked thread anyways) that connects to this community. Many, MANY players have left because of rude staff or pointlessly strict enforcement of rules.

It was moved to a private dead section we have. It is just cluttery so we move it there.
Regarding the rude staff how are you so sure that they aren't being rude as well. I'm not going to have our staff get told off because "the customer is always right." While we do take your guys inputs and stuff into consideration, it is not right to have people say their way is the right way. If you have a problem with rude staff you can take it up to me or any other administrator. If you have a problem with one of the administrators then go ahead and take it to Crafty. Over the past few years as admin I have pulled over staff and tell them to change their attitudes toward players. It is literally part of my responsibility to shape them into the way we want our staff to be.

@NerdieBirdieYT But to say that staff's enforcement of rules and general demeanor is NOT an issue to the community at large is blindness. I've been here for three months and it's blatantly obvious to me and most of the playerbase here.

Three months is a short time period to make such an assumption. The way we enforce rules can be tricky at times because there is grey areas sometimes that we have to cover. If we had to think of every scenario we had to be in it would be impossible. People will always try to find loopholes in the rules.

@NerdieBirdieYT Please do not give me the crap of "What should we do? Offer cookies to hackers?" and the like when I am being mature, honest, and allowing for community input on a big issue on CM. I'm not saying we abolish the rules. As for a solution, well, that's why this thread is public, because I am not intelligent enough to come up with a perfect solution on my own.

Going back to the rudeness you mentioned at staff. As I bolded above is that not being rude? Is it right that you guys think it is okay to be rude?

*This part was meant to be bolded right here, doesn't bold in quotes*

Please do not give me the crap

" If you have a problem with rude staff you can take it up to me or any other administrator. If you have a problem with one of the administrators then go ahead and take it to Crafty. " -iclutchhd

Probably the best key point here i have seen in a long time tbh .

Im suprised because this has happened before and it's happening now often than i thought it would just drop it ok he's banned

@R4iscool1 As I mentioned, perhaps this ban was legitimate. It's what Grassling brought up after the ban that is relevant to the community. No, I don't expect you to take harassment. I am not stupid.

The thread was a Ban Appeal thread. It was locked in the sense that only staff could reply to it. And again, I don't have everything I need to prove staff is evil, and that's not my goal at all. I have heard a LOT in the past few months about weird bans, bans that are more emotionally based than anything. Rudeness from the staff is pretty common, depending on who you are. Even newbies are sometimes mistreated by staff. You say this isn't a staff issue, but I don't disagree with any of the rules. My point is that they are poorly enforced. As someone I talked with earlier said, they seem to be "moody". Bans and warnings often occur for no good reason.

Obviously force is required. But rules are often taken too far on CM, and force is used without good reason.

I'm not going to make this into a big fight. But I think it's an issue that needs to be discussed. If no one in the community thinks so, then so be it. But if people agree with Grasslings' and my thread, then please be vocal so we can work out a change.

I want to note that I have not once been officially warned by staff. This is not a personal complaint, it's what I see from the community at large.

@iclutchHD The first three paragraphs were addressed in my last message above ^.

As for "Please don't give me the crap of" being rude... I'm not sure what to say to that, I guess. I don't see how that can be taken as rude. R4 acted as if I thought we should "offer cookies to hackers", and I prefer not to be treated like an idiot.

Please don't make offense of what I mean to be peaceful and harmless discussion.

@NerdieBirdieYT I mean.. you keep saying to want staff to look at how we handle enforcement of the rules, but I've yet to see any actual proposed solutions, suggestions, or ideas for modification of the enforcement system? I'm not trying to corner you here, I'm just genuinely curious if you or anyone else, have any solutions/ideas/suggestions they'd like to propose?

I'm firmly with staff on this, personally I'm a quiet player I try not to make waves or participate in chat much but I do read it.

I understand some players may have an issue with how strict the rules are, they may be used to less strict servers but I firmly believe as R4 does, that having the safe and family friendly chat CM does is a good part of what makes CM great and drove me to donate.
I'm sure staff do make mistakes, once or twice I have thought perhaps that person could have used less warning or a bit more after an action is undertaken but they are human mistakes happen. That's not their fault nor is it a huge issue, for the vast majority of the time staff in my opinion function perfectly.

This post stopped my art because its so fired up idk why im laughing
21 people rn viewing this shit

Please don't use your alt to support your arguments.

@Naidae I don't have a solution; I'm just one person. I'm also interested in hearing suggestions from everyone! :)

@Zane_Truesdale I have zero issues with the rules. It's the enforcement that is often an issue.

Also, chat ain't family friendly. Just saying. XD (I get what you mean though no worries <3)

@NerdieBirdieYT @R4iscool1 As I mentioned, perhaps this ban was legitimate. It's what Grassling brought up after the ban that is relevant to the community. No, I don't expect you to take harassment. I am not stupid.

There is no perhaps, we will not tolerate harassment of any players on our servers.
If your values are incompatible them I'm sorry but we won't allow it.
Indeed he has sparked a flame, one that would have been better served with a measured response and discussion but that time has passed sadly.

@NerdieBirdieYT The thread was a Ban Appeal thread. It was locked in the sense that only staff could reply to it. And again, I don't have everything I need to prove staff is evil, and that's not my goal at all. I have heard a LOT in the past few months about weird bans, bans that are more emotionally based than anything. Rudeness from the staff is pretty common, depending on who you are. Even newbies are sometimes mistreated by staff. You say this isn't a staff issue, but I don't disagree with any of the rules. My point is that they are poorly enforced. As someone I talked with earlier said, they seem to be "moody". Bans and warnings often occur for no good reason.

It was moved out to general for a bit before we decided to wait for a proper response.
Again, you keep claiming these things but rulebreakers do complain about staff for unfair reasons that just life. However if you believe there is legitimate complaints among them then tell us what you think we have done wrong.
There is no point in this pointless back and forth, "I heard this or that" unless we have specific situations in which you think we acted inappropriately and explain why then we can never change since we will never know what you are talking about or whether it's valid or not.
We enforce the rules as they were intended when they are written, if you disagree with the intention and the situations they cover then you should make a post about the rules not the staff who are just enforcing precedent most of the time.
I've never encountered a ban for no reason, please once again can you tell us of even one instance of this ?

@NerdieBirdieYT Obviously force is required. But rules are often taken too far on CM, and force is used without good reason.

Again we need examples without giving us examples, there is no way to see what you think went wrong or whether your complaint is valid or not. There cannot be change that way.

@NerdieBirdieYT

I want to note that I have not once been officially warned by staff. This is not a personal complaint, it's what I see from the community at large.

Personally I think 3 months is a short time to be able to see what the community at large believes but each to their own.

I want to throw in my two cents on this situation.

Now, myself personally I never had really got into any icky situations with staff expect maybe one or two times, but other than that, I've seen some things, man.

Personally, first off, I have no ill intentions to stomp any down and underestimate their worth.

let's make this quick and snappy.

Before anything, I want to say that if anything, is that some, not all players in the community, don't take crafty and the other mods help for keeping the server nice and shiny, especially when the server has a typical average of 35-50 people on at most times; that requires dedication keeping everything stable and some sort of communication has to be among staff to help deal with problems and ban cheaters/rude people/ etc.

I mean, I can go all day on my personal opinions on staff, but, that isn't the point of this thread; the main personal issue I like to highlight is this thread and what people have been posting and a large scale of CM community in general.

Full on staff and player discussion in an open thread like this rarely happens on the forums; In my time on CM here and before the november reset I don't think I've ever seen a thread like this occuring, it's a rare phenomenon.

CM discussion isn't meant to be sending every damn complaint or opinion to crafty and whoever; I personally believe people should have a chance of openly speaking about opinions. Not sending everything in nicely-packed messages where incase something happens to the player, the opinion or complaint is hidden away for no one to lay eyes on. ( Not saying that is what happens. )

Personally, It seems like all of this is suppressing public opinion on both staff and players; Sugarcoating and romanticizing everything does not work.

Personally glad @NerdieBirdieYT made this thread.

let's take a poll

@NerdieBirdieYT @Zane_Truesdale I have zero issues with the rules. It's the enforcement that is often an issue.

Also, chat ain't family friendly. Just saying. XD (I get what you mean though no worries <3)

I just don't think there is an issue with how they enforce the rules, you have yet to bring up one situation to convince me either. Up until now in my view it's simply you repeating complaints of hackers and people banned for chat offenses without explaining anything or why these bans were wrong.

I'm a rational person if you think you are right I welcome any chance to bring about change but you need to stop with these sweeping generalizations which overall ring hollow, anyone can say this but the facts don't lie.

@Cileklim Please don't use your alt to support your arguments.

I'm going to assume that was directed at me as the only person who is least known here, I think it's pretty disrespectful to me that you assume anyone who disagrees with you that's not well known is an alt.
Some of us work 40+ hour weeks and then commute 2 hours each day on top of that, the source of logic and truth is irrelevant to the content itself anyway.

@iwarriiori let's take a poll

Thx Iwarriori, did you like your sign ?

@GrandpaCarl00 Full on staff and player discussion in an open thread like this rarely happens on the forums; In my time on CM here and before the november reset I don't think I've ever seen a thread like this occuring, it's a rare phenomenon.

CM discussion isn't meant to be sending every damn complaint or opinion to crafty and whoever; I personally believe people should have a chance of openly speaking about opinions. Not sending everything in nicely-packed messages where incase something happens to the player, the opinion or complaint is hidden away for no one to lay eyes on. ( Not saying that is what happens. )

Personally, It seems like all of this is suppressing public opinion on both staff and players; Sugarcoating and romanticizing everything does not work.

Personally glad @NerdieBirdieYT made this thread.

These threads occur quite a lot on the forums actually, see Cephieds mega post or even just yesterday Staff and the community debating the merits of a map reset. In fact these kind of threads happen regularly.

We don't censor posts but in this case we thought it was a good idea to put an official staff response up first before releasing back to public, clearly that was a mistake since it just spiraled but we don't censor here.
Just search complaint on the forums and you will see just how many threads we have taken our time to respond too respectfully and thoughtfully about issues people have with staff.

Personally I would rather he waited till we responded and moved to general but that boat has sailed.