Just curious if there is any chance at all of switching to a bukkit/plugin base server that would allow for the control of entities (and other bugs with the current version), until mojang finally comes around to fixing them?
I am not saying add any changes to the gameplay itself, just server managing plugins that would help ease up on the crippling lag. The gameplay will still be 100% vanilla.
It's especially rough for new players who don't understand that it is not at the fault of the server, just the game version having issues, which leads to loss of new players and all.
I know its a touchy subject, this question is plain curiosity nothing more.
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5 years ago
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Changing to spigot is a one-way road for the most part, so if we were to change, it would mean everyone would have to be on board. It also is not just as simple as changing the jar to spigot/paper, almost everything about the server has been purpose bit for vanilla. It would take a lot of time and effort on my part to manage it all, with my current work schedule I just don't have the time.
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i think if we changed to spigot we would also be in their hands waiting for them to update after mojang does
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I have a solution.
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Auto kick players who are default, starting with the lowest tick count if the server tick rate goes below 10 ticks per second.
this would be my solution to the lag. limit the number of players, with a sort of white list that lets the paid players priority to the server.
or getting a ton more ram and using a ram disk to store the game so that load times are improved. warning this would subject the server to lots and lots of bad things if the power went out. but ram has much faster read and write times than SSDs. however I guess i do think some ram disks have a back up to hard drive feature. so maybe not too much would be lost in a power failure.
however i am not a computer guy. nor have i even attempted to look at hosting minecraft servers so i have no idea how practical theses suggestions would be. and please don't take them because i have no idea what the far reaching complications could be, you know the butterfly effect and all that! maybe a ram disk will use more power which will cause rolling black outs and the end of the industrial world!
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The ram isnt the issue. if i remember right, Mojang runs vanilla minecraft though a single core. Bukkit and Spiggot fix this to run multicore, which is why they get such signifigant performance improvement. We already use the best possible combination of server components for CraftyMynes....
Mojang dosent care about us Hardcore survivalists. if they would just implement the multicore coding, this whole problem could go away. We've been asking since 1.8 came out.
We've fought through the lag issues time and time again and will continues fighting through them to the best of our abilities.
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@iwarriiori I have a solution.
TELL
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Lets be honest, the chances of Mojang fixing the lag problem is like finding a skeleton with full diamond armor at night, and I've only ever seen one in my years of playing Minecraft. So with that said, this conversation will continue to come up unless the whole community and Crafty decide to change the server. And even then, someone will find a new problem to talk about. Yes this lag is so bad that many active and great players are leaving and considering not coming back, not I of course. This is a really nice community and I would hate to see everyone leave because of something that the server, nor the owner is not responsible for. There really is no solid answer for us to do besides play the lag infected game, or leave....
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I know it is easy for me to say seeing as I would not have to do any of the work but I would definitely favor moving on to a spigot/bukkit server. I mean unless there is less than 6-8 people online and playing the lag is was so bad earlier today I spent well over 10 minutes in a black void, no movement no nothing for both my primary homes where I play...
Anyhow if it just wouldn't be manageable due to IRL etc. or other reasons I totally understand. -
@Fingerbib TELL
Ban em.
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@BlueAce56 Lets be honest, the chances of Mojang fixing the lag problem is like finding a skeleton with full diamond armor at night, and I've only ever seen one in my years of playing Minecraft. So with that said, this conversation will continue to come up unless the whole community and Crafty decide to change the server. And even then, someone will find a new problem to talk about. Yes this lag is so bad that many active and great players are leaving and considering not coming back, not I of course. This is a really nice community and I would hate to see everyone leave because of something that the server, nor the owner is not responsible for. There really is no solid answer for us to do besides play the lag infected game, or leave....
It’s apparently been fixed
https://bugs.mojang.com/plugins/servlet/mobile#issue/MC-151772 -
Edited 5 years ago by bgmg
I do have to point out that this lag is never going to go away - Mojang will just keep adding more crap on top of what's already a mess of a code. Maybe it's time to have some sort of poll for plug-ins? Not saying we need big changes now but this crippling lag can't be good in for CM's future.
Here is a list of pros & cons of some plug-ins for anti lag purposes that I collected (feel free to discuss):
Pros :- Reduces lag (& weight on the server hadware?)
- Better for new players & older players who might want to play more often
- Could allow for larger maps in the future? (may not be related at all due to that being a Storage thing)
Cons :
- CM has been running vanilla for a long time
- Most things run using vanilla such as the control panel
- CM would be dependent on Bukkit/Pigot to update to new versions of minecraft
Question is... Do players want that? Is it good in the long term? Will it a take a ridiculous amount of hard work to get done? Could CM continue to stay 100% vanilla for the upcoming months/years? Will the gameplay change or CM as a whole?
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I say leave it vanillia.
I love minecraft comes out with an update. then in an hour crafty mynes updates!
with plugins, we would have to wait months for the plugins to update. and often times the plugins do not update.
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I have just looked into the update release dates of previous versions and at least spigot usually comes out within the same week. I have gone through a handful of forums and found a few talking about also being just survival with a couple admin plugins being used. I could still be wrong but this "Update takes forever" argument just does not seem to be valid? Feel free to prove this wrong <<<
Perhaps we can wait and see for the 1.14.3 version and see if that fixes it. If it still continues maybe then we could raise the issue again and explore possible resolutions? -
@Jkeller4000 I say leave it vanillia.
I love minecraft comes out with an update. then in an hour crafty mynes updates!
with plugins, we would have to wait months for the plugins to update. and often times the plugins do not update.
@Aeristacho I have just looked into the update release dates of previous versions and at least spigot usually comes out within the same week. I have gone through a handful of forums and found a few talking about also being just survival with a couple admin plugins being used. I could still be wrong but this "Update takes forever" argument just does not seem to be valid? Feel free to prove this wrong <<<
Perhaps we can wait and see for the 1.14.3 version and see if that fixes it. If it still continues maybe then we could raise the issue again and explore possible resolutions?This used to be the case, however, with snapshots and the way that spigot is just patching the mojang jar and not re-writing large parts of it, updates are much faster. PaperSpigot is likely what we would be using. Minecraft 1.14 came out April 23 and paperspigot came out May 7th, so about 2 weeks where we would not have the newest version until they update. The slow down with plugin servers is when they run 100's of plugins and not every plugin dev updates their plugins, as a semi-vanilla server we would be running no plugins or maybe just a few anti lag type plugins. The time to update would be much quicker, just at the mercy of paperspigot. One other thing is that paperspigot updates 1-2 times a week, so it would be quite the task to vet each version and update.
I think the main thing this comes down to is how people feel about, how much they want and, whether they can support the staff and I through the upgrade process as it would be a hell of a lot of work both technically and administratively (we could likely support more players)
It would be a ton of time and effort for me of which I just don't have the time, I would want to be sure this is the right decision and what the players wanted before proceeding.
Polls have in the past not been a great representation of what players want as the % of players on the forum is quite low to the players on the server. I would be likely making a poll that operates on the server.
Thoughts?
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I want the server to continue with game play as near to vanilla as possible. I am open to whatever achieves this goal. I feel the server is dying due to massive mobs and lag. chunks load slow also.. If we can add a few things to fix this while maintaining the Vanilla feel I am on board.
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Edited 5 years ago by Aeristacho
How about make a poll both on the forums and in game?
I see you are stressing how much of a workload this will be, especially for you and your administrative teatm. Perhaps you could poll it in the staff circles first? -
@iwarriiori Ban em.
you heard him bois
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Edited 5 years ago by Compos
it might have a bit to do with villagers.
I noticed at 8 game time there was a lag spike.
then at 6 in game time there was a huge lag spike and the game crashed.
I am hoping that maybe someone can come and visit all players villages and give suggestions on how to make the villagers finding their work stations easier.
or verify that it is villages? because maybe i am just trying to find a pattern where there is none?
or it could be the iron golems in town, i had to set up a way that auto killed the iron golems because they would keep spawning and get quiet a few. maybe there are towns out there with many golems trapped in a house making the server do millions of collision calculations.
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Mojang should feel responsible to do something on vanilla servers, because it doesn't make sense to use plug-ins in order to play a vanilla game with a vanilla experience. In fact, it is quite ironic. But since Mojang doesn't benefit monetarily at all from servers, I feel we might be doomed to be in this eternal loop if we don't come up with a solution ourselves
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5 years agoEdited 5 years ago by XenialJesse
The reality is that vanilla isn't going to solve lag issues like plugins do. The only real reason in this thread to keep going with pure vanilla is in Crafty's replies: time.
The flipside of that is the other reality: profit.
The server currently doesn't run in a way that will hold onto players. Right now we *prefer* when there are about 6 players on, and that's not how you want a server population to be thinking.Even when we consider the (better) 1.13 performance on Crafty, I just tried another raid/grief-friendly 1.13 server in the US. I'm connecting from Australia and the difference is simply unbelievable. Not one block lagged, even digging with bare hands. At least 80 players on, since 80 is all that could fit on the screen. Mobs moved fast. Tick speed was actually running on time. I didn't know online games could feel that close to single player. It was unbelievable to me while playing but maybe that's actually normal. With over 80 players.
Even in 1.13 on Crafty we didn't get anything like that. A server on vanilla will tick more slowly more often. It doesn't matter what Mojang should do; they aren't doing it.
If we can still play the vanilla experience with simply less lag, I'm for it. I love the legit vanilla experience, but we don't have to hold onto a bad thing just because it's been held onto for so long already.
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@Xenial_Jesse The reality is that vanilla isn't going to solve lag issues like plugins do. The only real reason in this thread to keep going with pure vanilla is in Crafty's replies: time.
The flipside of that is the other reality: profit.
The server currently doesn't run in a way that will hold onto players. Right now we *prefer* when there are about 6 players on, and that's not how you want a server population to be thinking.Even when we consider the (better) 1.13 performance on Crafty, I just tried another raid/grief-friendly 1.13 server in the US. I'm connecting from Australia and the difference is simply unbelievable. Not one block lagged, even digging with bare hands. At least 80 players on, since 80 is all that could fit on the screen. Mobs moved fast. Tick speed was actually running on time. I didn't know online games could feel that close to single player. It was unbelievable to me while playing but maybe that's actually normal. With over 80 players.
Even in 1.13 on Crafty we didn't get anything like that. A server on vanilla will tick more slowly more often. It doesn't matter what Mojang should do; they aren't doing it.
If we can still play the vanilla experience with simply less lag, I'm for it. I love the legit vanilla experience, but we don't have to hold onto a bad thing just because it's been held onto for so long already.
Back in 1.8 we were able to hold 88 players with little to no lag, we now have better hardware and more optimized systems, but we can barely manage 2tps. Mojang has clearly shown they are never going to be on a road to optimization and performance.
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It's worth acknowledging that right now the biggest causes of lag aren't so much vanilla as they are 1.14.
1.14.3 in theory could get things back to vanilla 1.13 performance, but we've been through those hopes with 1.14.1 and 1.14.2 already. Plus as others have mentioned, ongoing future versions of Minecraft will give the server more to deal with for each new feature. -
@Xenial_Jesse It's worth acknowledging that right now the biggest causes of lag aren't so much vanilla as they are 1.14.
1.14.3 in theory could get things back to vanilla 1.13 performance, but we've been through those hopes with 1.14.1 and 1.14.2 already. Plus as others have mentioned, ongoing future versions of Minecraft will give the server more to deal with for each new feature.The thing is, from 1.8 to 1.14.2, we have seen each update lag consistently worse. 1.14.2 really didn't improve the overall lag, it just got it closer to what it was in 1.13. Right now we have a critical mass that is able to keep the server afloat in donations and votes. Soon, with the unplayable nature of 1.14, we will go drop below this number and the new players won't come, we won't have the donations to keep the server going and CraftyMynes will disappear. It is a shame it has come to this, but Mojang has shown no interest in keeping Vanilla alive.
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Im not sure if chunk loading or entities are the problem. I was on a singleplayer creative superflat world yesterday, staying in the same place with no entities. I was still getting pretty big lag spikes. I wasnt doing anything that would cause lag, literally just building.
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Edited 5 years ago by Th3GreenGamer
I really don’t think going semi-vanilla is a good idea. We’d just be a drop in a semi-vanilla ocean. Not special like it is now, being an ACTUALLY vanilla server (Which is the server’s unique core purpose). Going back all those years ago, I would have never actually joined if this was s-v. For those that would say “Nothing would be different” Yes it would, there would be no reason for the server to exist. It would have no defining principle. Destroying the thing that makes this server unique is just destroying the server altogether. Honestly If the server was made into semi-vanilla I might very well leave.
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I understand what you are saying - i joined CM precisely because it was vanilla. But we are losing players fast at the moment partly because they find the lag intolerable and partly because of the no of bugs introduced with 1.14. With each update it has become harder and harder to support a reasonable number of players on the server at the same time without getting serious lag.
Whilst my heart will always be true vanilla, my brain has come to the conclusion that CM must seriously consider if it is time to convert to semi vanilla.
I would stress that even if we do use spigot to enhance performance there will be no plugins that change gameplay so it will still be the game as it is intended to be played and I believe Crafty can integrate all the current services and perks we enjoy into it so you wont actually notice any difference other than the lack of lag.
As for being a drop in the semi-vanilla ocean and not being special - i don't think it is only the vanilla element that makes this place special. The dedication to the integrity of the server by ensuring it is played fairly, the community, the staff and Crafty's skill in making things work all contribute to the specialness. I am sure if we went semi-vanilla we would soon be at the top of the listings.
Whilst I would not want to pressure anyone to vote either way, I do encourage folks to keep an open mind over the prospective change.
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Edited 5 years ago by bgmg
I kinda understand that being vanilla was good but here's the thing... You telling me that you'd rather play on CM because it is laggy and unplayable? That plug-in we are talking about will in NO WAY change the gameplay and I don't understand all the fuss that's around it.
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@Th3GreenGamer I really don’t think going semi-vanilla is a good idea. We’d just be a drop in a semi-vanilla ocean. Not special like it is now, being an ACTUALLY vanilla server (Which is the server’s unique core purpose). Going back all those years ago, I would have never actually joined if this was s-v. For those that would say “Nothing would be different” Yes it would, there would be no reason for the server to exist. It would have no defining principle. Destroying the thing that makes this server unique is just destroying the server altogether. Honestly If the server was made into semi-vanilla I might very well leave.
I have held off changing to spigot for so long just because of this issue. I have spent 5 years developing this server solely with vanilla in mind. Every single system from the custom panel that handles votes, homes, chat filtering, server AI helper, donations, hacker detection to the forum and other services that CraftyMynes has. All these, for the most part, were unheard of in the vanilla category, we were the first for so many things. That being said, the majority of these features could have been implemented just by downloading a simple plugin from some random forum somewhere. I picked vanilla because I enjoyed the challenge of doing something no one else had done, developing tools and methods that didn't exist.
All that being said, I am tired of the shit that mojang pulls, it is impossible to run a server where every second word out of someone's mouth is LAAAAGGG. It pains me to see all these players come on for 5 minutes and say "This server is shit, they should buy some more ram.", for god sakes, I pay $100's a month on the best server components that money can buy, and even more money on the services that make CraftyMynes special. Every waking hour I am tuning each and every component/system to run as smooth as possible. At this point, I can't tell if the pain of giving up everything I stand for, all my hard work to keep this server vanilla, is worse than the pain of knowing CraftyMynes might not exist in the not too distant future. I gotta be honest with you, I never wanted to make money from this server, but at the same time, I can't be paying everything out of pocket.
CraftyMynes key selling points are it's Vanilla, it has systems like TPA, and a good community.
TPA is no longer special, vanilla is dying, so all we got is a community, if we don't do something soon, we won't have community and a server without community is nothing.
I say, wait for 1.14.3 to come out, see what it brings to the table, but, if it can't hold more than 5 people without lagging, we will have to switch or risk disappearing altogether.
My 2cents.
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Edited 5 years ago by DonCake
Whatever the decision it's gonna be made, I'm with the community. Never saw any other community as chill as CM.
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@DonCake Having an anti-lag plugin won't make the gameplay less vanilla
It's not even a plugin, it's just paper spigot, it is some performance enhancing modifications to the game code that Mojang should have done.
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@CraftyMyner All that being said, I am tired of the shit that mojang pulls, it is impossible to run a server where every second word out of someone's mouth is LAAAAGGG. It pains me to see all these players come on for 5 minutes and say "This server is shit, they should buy some more ram.", for god sakes, I pay $100's a month on the best server components that money can buy, and even more money on the services that make CraftyMynes special. Every waking hour I am tuning each and every component/system to run as smooth as possible.
"SERVER NEEDS MORE RAM 5.0 GHZ ISNT ENOUGH MY FAVORITE SPIGOT SERVER RUNS BETTER" -
Final conclusion for me:
The disagreement seems to boil down to principle vs pragmatism. Of course while I firmly fall into principle, neither side is wrong. If there is a vote I will vote vanilla. I think giving up what the server stands for will just be giving up on what makes this server, this server.
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Atleast the 1.14.3 Prerlease looks promising. Seems to solve quite a few of the major issues.
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Edited 5 years ago by JaceNeedsCoffee
While I feel that sticking to our vanilla routes is important, I know that this server is more than just a server or block game. In its more simplest form, it is yes, but this server provides a getaway for people. It is a way to distract from real life for a couple of hours and have some fun you might otherwise not. It has given me people I'd call my closest friends. I've even met a couple of people in person that I've played with for years on here. When I first joined the server I was in a dark place with my depression and family issues. When I had free time I could come on for a little bit and play with others. I didn't feel as alone and isolated from the world. I had people to spend time with to make the bad times go just a little bit faster and be a little more enjoyable. I think that our community is so strong and if we wish to stick to the principal of being vanilla the server will die out and we will lose all the creative, loving and caring people that make our server special and unique. As much as I would hate losing our vanilla status, I would rather lose that than each and every one of you lovely people that kept me going in those dark times and keep me company to this day :)
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@JaceNeedsCoffee While I feel that sticking to our vanilla routes is important, I know that this server is more than just a server or block game. In its more simplest form, it is yes, but this server provides a getaway for people. It is a way to distract from real life for a couple of hours and have some fun you might otherwise not. It has given me people I'd call my closest friends. I've even met a couple of people in person that I've played with for years on here. When I first joined the server I was in a dark place with my depression and family issues. When I had free time I could come on for a little bit and play with others. I didn't feel as alone and isolated from the world. I had people to spend time with to make the bad times go just a little bit faster and be a little more enjoyable. I think that our community is so strong and if we wish to stick to the principal of being vanilla the server will die out and we will lose all the creative, loving and caring people that make our server special and unique. As much as I would hate losing our vanilla status, I would rather lose that than each and every one of you lovely people that kept me going in those dark time and keep me company to this day :)
I wholeheartedly agree with this, we have come too far and put too much in to lose it all over mojang's crap.
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@CraftyMyner I say, wait for 1.14.3 to come out, see what it brings to the table, but, if it can't hold more than 5 people without lagging, we will have to switch or risk disappearing altogether.
Makes sense.
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how exciting! i seriously can't wait to not lag uwu
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I've not given an opinion on this yet, mostly because I want to stay vanilla, but I know, if things don't get better, that's the wrong decision. I too am for the principle of it. I only found CM because it was vanilla, and I've stayed because of that. It's absolutely amazing all the things Crafty has done with it. A good portion of the people who join don't believe us when we say we're 100% vanilla, because we've managed things other vanilla couldn't. There's some real pride in that. Crafty deserves all the praise in the world for making vanilla the best form of minecraft for a lot of us. I'd hate to see CM turn away from that.
But I also hate seeing CM die. I hate seeing lag be the main topic in chat all the time. I hate hearing so many cries for help because 1.14 screwed someone over in something, time and time again, and there's little to nothing I can do to help. I hate that I don't see my friends on anymore, because they can't play or refuse to play until things are better. I hate that I can only play at certain times when traffic is low, because it's unbearable any other time.
I would love to stay vanilla. But if things don't improve with 1.14.3, then it's not just the server that's at risk of dying. I've spent so many years in this community, and I don't want to lose it. I'd happily switch to semi if it meant keeping this community. I'd switch to a different game entirely if it meant keeping this community. If staying vanilla means watching the thing I care about slowly suffer as I wait for it to inevitably die, then I don't want to be vanilla anymore. And I don't mean to sound harsh in saying this, but if a video game running a certain way is more important than preserving real friendships and keeping a real community alive, you should rethink your principles.
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just switch to spigot for the purpose of reducing lag, leave everything else the same. ie just change the jar lol
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